Welcome to Season 7 of the Troubleshooting Innovation podcast. Joanie Spencer, editor-in-chief for Commercial Baking, speaks with Richard Charpentier, CMB, and CEO of consulting company Baking Innovation. Their conversation explores the technical aspects of creating high-quality, premium baked goods on a commercial scale. Sponsored by Puratos’ Sunset Glaze.

Our final episode revolves around the role the visual appearance of both the finished baked good and its packaging plays in garnering a higher price point.

Learn more about this season here, and listen to Troubleshooting Innovation on Apple, Spotify, Google and Stitcher.

Joanie Spencer: Hi, Richard. Thanks for joining me for this last week in our season.

Richard Charpentier: Hey, Joanie. Good to hear from you. Yes, I am glad to be part of it. I am sad it is already the last segment of the season.

Spencer: It goes by fast, doesn’t it?

Charpentier: We have had so much fun!

Spencer: For sure. Okay, so we are going to wind down this season by looking at the end of the process, the finished baked good and what happens when it is on the shelf. So, in terms of aesthetics, what is it that makes the difference between a standard and a premium baked good?

Charpentier: Very good question. When it comes to aesthetics, there are several factors that differentiate standard baked goods from premium ones. On cake, it’s the intricate designs and decoration on the product, or sometimes you even see that on the bread. If you look online at TikTok and Instagram, you will see people doing very intricate, unique shapes and patterns in breads and pastries. Look at an example of Cronuts. It’s basically a croissant, but it looks different and caught everyone’s attention to make them think it is a premium item.

When I started in the industry, Hostess was always considered, at the time and for years after, the leader of the premium boxed retail cake. One thing that made them different was their squiggle. That was the little thing that made a difference from a regular cupcake to a premium cupcake. So, things like that, when it comes to aesthetics, will make a big difference.

The appearance of a premium croissant may be the distinct flakiness of the golden color due to the high-quality butter and flour. People right away think this one look premium, just visually, and it doesn’t have to have a design. If it’s a product that is not retail, the packaging could be premium.

We mentioned Entenmann’s, and back in the days to make a product premium, their marketing approach was to make a clear window. This way it is like a retail store. Everyone can see what they’re buying. Therefore, visual appeal is selling appeal versus just something that is more of a neutral, like a box with a picture, because people perceive quality through the visual. It’s important to do that.

I read something that said 70% to 80% of the buying decisions are made visually. And it is true. If you walk somewhere and see something and think “Whoo, that looks nice. I want to buy it.” We use our senses to connect with food. And that’s why I think aesthetic is good as far as packaging goes, but the product used to look like the product on a picture, which is the challenge because if you open the box and you look at the product and you think “Oh, it looks nothing like it,” then most likely you will be disappointed and not buy it again. So, the visual aesthetic has to look nice. You mentioned burger and brioche buns in last week’s episode. When they have a beautiful shine to the bun, it makes you want to eat it.

Spencer: I have this image in my mind of a perfect brioche hamburger bun. The aesthetic and look of it is what sticks in my head and get my thoughts in motion for wanting a burger with a brioche bun. We talked about taste and texture last week and how taste reigns supreme. Taste is what will ensure the repeat purchase, but you’re right — appearance is what gets the purchase in the first place. So, when you think about the R&D process, where should appearance come onto the radar for a product developer? Does it need to be considered early on? How are we going to develop a product that’s very beautiful looking, as well as great tasting? Where does it fall in the process?

Charpentier: It’s a great question. Appearance, as we’re talking about this, really is the important overall appeal of the bakery product. From an R&D standpoint, R&D is there to design and create. So, the ingredients will play a factor in the finished product. It’s going to also be that the appearance is ultimately coming from the way it is being done in the plant, so the automation.

R&D can say, “Hey, this is a great product, but pies are being run every day. How much attention to detail is being put into the bakery to ensure that visual appeal is there?” Again, the example of the squiggle trademark on the cupcake. How do we ensure that it’s being done every day, and are the people trained? Is the product baked perfectly? Because in all the bakeries, they’ll have a chart that says overbaked, underbaked and perfect.

With entering premium, R&D can only control so much. But early in the process, R&D can dictate and set up the inline specifications and put a very strong standard deviation for the process to ensure that this is what we want to target, and don’t deviate from it. That’s where R&D’s role will be at the beginning, to check on the line test to ensure can we replicate the product? Can you duplicate the product? Can we triplicate the product and still get the same results, and feel confident about it? That’s what we did with my years at Conagra. We would go into the plant, and sometimes it would take up to three months to ensure that the product was repeatable.

Why was the product accepted to be put on the market is because it’s a unique product. And that’s where R&D will have to make sure they deliver consistent and visually appealing products day in and day out and with working very closely with the ops and manufacturing to ensure that it’s a doable thing. And if it’s not, then they should raise the red flag and say, “Hey, guys, we’re having a problem,” because there’s nothing worse than to push for premium and then you open the package and it’s a different experience, you’re going to be disappointed as a consumer.

Spencer: And that goes back to how I closed out last week’s conversation, that there has to be a relationship between the bakery science and the automation to bring it together.

Charpentier: Yes. Especially as we mentioned, dealing with yeast or chemically leaven, the bakery is full of changes, different ingredients. It’s a lot of chemical and biological reactions happening constantly. And monitoring a two-degrees difference makes a difference in your end results, and bakers know that. So how do we all work together to ensure more precision and the product coming out is going to resemble the product we made yesterday? That’s a challenge.

Spencer: Okay, I’m going to shift gears a little bit and go outside of the operation and go back to that channel discussion we had a few weeks ago. I want to talk specifically about the retail and supermarket shelves. What do bakers need to be mindful of in terms of how their premium products can be merchandise or will be merchandise? For example, how does a high-volume producer of center store products need to think about their market strategy versus a baker who might be producing items that are sold in the perimeter of the store?

Charpentier: To start, with the merchandising of premium products on the retail market shelves … I think the first thing is your packaging. The packaging of the product should be visually appealing and attractive to the customer. The way I look at it is, I go back to 1992 or 1993 when I think it was Hostess launched a baker’s end. They tried to do that premium retail baker bread with different packaging; it was on a brand bag. And I thought it was so cool. But the bread, overall, was too similar to what they were selling, so they could not sell the premium.

The packaging is key, so maybe think of all the ways of packaging bread. Maybe bread doesn’t have to be sliced. I’ve seen people who sell baguettes that are not sliced at the bakery deli category. Then another thing to keep in mind is the shelf life of your product. It’s not just the only thing, but it’s important that there’s no waste. Thinking of premium in terms of shelf life, you must consider where it’s being placed in the grocery store. And sometimes, consumers tend to think that the bakery deli aisle is fresher and more premium.

And then lastly, on that first question, I think marketing must find a way to be creative and showcase that it is still bread, but this bread is different how? Naybe use influencers and social media and create more awareness that says “Hey, that product is premium. Even though it’s the same brand, it’s different and this is why.” Almost like how the automobile industry launches a new car. It’s what is the added value and what’s the new experience that the bakery is giving the consumers? And then, how does a high-volume producer of center store product need to think about the market strategy versus a baker producing for the perimeter?

I come from grocery stores as well. If you look at the typical layout of a grocery store, the center store is most likely all the shelf-stable items and the middle aisles of a grocery store. And usually, they’re marketed to appeal to a wider range of consumers. But usually, those producers and manufacturers of those products in the center of store use heavier advertising and better promotion. They often use lots of coupons and discounts found in the paper to drive the sales and increase the market share.

But on the other hand, bakery products for around the perimeter, we’re dealing with perishable items. Typically, those products are going to be sold in smaller quantities and have higher-quality ingredients. And how do you market the difference? It’s knowing the market and knowing what will attract the customers to come in and then what are they willing to pay for as a premium price. That is going to be the first thing to understand, in my opinion, and see from the supply chain of distribution to the grocery store, can they use the same distribution?

Baking can be done differently. At one point I said, “Hey, let’s take some of your dough and freeze it. And then have the in-store bakery bake it for you.” Similar to what Walmart used to do but instead of being just the store brand, it could be Dave’s Killer Bread, “baked fresh every day” because freshness is going to be perceived as premium.

So again, I’m thinking outside of the box. I’m not saying that’s what they should do, but giving some thoughts around how that could be done because competing with the center store and the heavy marketing dollars that is spent to ensure people will come back, it’s difficult to compete, especially in the bakery category.

Spencer: Yes, for sure, because you’re looking at brand recognition versus marketing solely on the look of the product and what it’s packaged in. I do want to talk a little bit about packaging, because I will say I am a sucker for good packaging. In any capacity as a consumer, I will buy something if it’s packaged beautifully.

What do you think are the top packaging considerations in terms of things like the materials that it’s packaged in and if you can see the product, and how does the product look inside the packaging, but then also label claims that tout the ingredients or the quality or even nutritional claims? How should bakers be taking those types of things into consideration?

Charpentier: In my opinion, to attract people and to give advice to the bakers in terms of packaging and consideration … we mentioned on the first week, Laduree, with its French macaroons. Once you walk into a store or retail shop and you see all the products on display, and they are full of colors, it makes you want to buy them. So, I think visibility-wise you have your product, how do you work it out? I want to see what I’m buying. If you have just a box with a beautiful picture, I think that is great, but it doesn’t make me want to eat the box. I want to eat the product. We are using our senses, as we mentioned in prior weeks, the aesthetics, the appeal, visual appeal is super important, the taste, the texture, etc. We’re connecting with the product in terms of our senses. So visual appeal will make the product stand out on the shelf.

And then you have other aspects to help that people will use such as matte packaging, or resealable packaging or oxygen scavengers. We can revamp the packaging, based on what you do. And then right now, we cannot forget sustainability. I think bakers should be thinking of designing packaging with sustainability in mind, such as eco-friendly materials or minimizing packaging. Because there is a cost to packaging, but there is also cost of premium.

So, it is finding the right balance of “Alright, how could I create the best packaging and still be premium while being sustainable?” It is work to find the balance and to get the product, the packaging, the supply chain and the distribution to deliver the packaging. But again, with packaging, visibility would be the number one appeal to me. I want to see my product; I want to see what I am buying.

Spencer: I tend to agree with you on that. So then on the flip side, some commercial bakers are producing for foodservice. What are the visual aspects that scream high-quality to a restaurant when they are selling their products? Bringing it back to the hamburger on a brioche bun.

Charpentier: I was about was about to say that it’s true. With restaurant owners and the foodservice, it is a different priority when it comes to the high quality and visual appeal of baked goods. They want to set themselves apart. How many times have we sat in a small restaurant, and you get your burger, and the bun is basically the same bun that you can buy at the grocery store. And you’re like, “Yeah, this is good.” But it takes away the experience. It’s like if you love to drink wine and a restaurant serves the same wine that you have at home.

I think restaurant owners want something to set them apart. The example of a brioche and if it is nice and shiny and then it goes through the aesthetic of taste and texture and all the things we’ve been talking about, then the customer is going to say “Hey, I’m coming back here because the product is consistent. I love it, and it is different, which is part of the experience.” And for them, offering premium products that appeal to the customer is how they build their customer satisfaction, loyalty and people coming back, unlike a manufacturer or a high line, where they push all the products out and then they are done.

Small restaurant owners are dealing with customers every day. If they’re not happy, they’re going to stand up and say, “I want to speak to the manager.” So, for them premium is very important. Not only are the burger buns important, but it could also be the rustic sourdough loaf, because the crust is caramelized and the chew is great. You can go to a place that serves premium bagel sandwiches, maybe they’re receiving the bagels partly baked and then finishing them there. Having an appeal that almost looks like an artisan baker made it.

Again, if customers think they are getting a quality product, it justifies the higher price point for my burger. The meat is great; the burger is amazing. I’ll spend $18 for a burger, because now it’s worth it to me. I think it’s a great point, because sometimes there’s a disconnect. It would be interesting to get a premium meat burger and put one on an everyday type of burger bun that you can buy at the grocery store, and then put one on a brioche bun. Take 50 people and say, “Which one would you want” I can almost assure you that most people will go for the brioche or the nicer-looking bread.

Spencer: Oh, absolutely. And I will tell you, these high-quality brioche buns or high-quality sourdough breads for a great sandwich, they can be made at scale. And these foodservice customers are really seeking that because you’re right: they can’t do that in the back of the house.

I was at a restaurant and ordered a sandwich, and I had that experience that you described. I was like, “This is something that I could have made in my own refrigerator, just by opening up my refrigerator and seeing what I have laying around. I could have done this in five minutes.” And that is an impactful experience and not in the direction that a foodservice operator would want it to go. So, I think that it is important for baker’s to really understand that there is a business opportunity to be had in creating high-quality premium baked goods for foodservice customers.

Charpentier: Good point. That’s true. That’s where we want to make sure it’s all about the experience. It’s not just the product you could buy every day. But if you want premium, you have to rethink what is premium?

Spencer: Yeah, I’m going to be a little bit contradictory, though in my next question. I’m curious, visually, what your opinion is on quality crossover among different channels. And I’ll just give you a narrative example. So, during the pandemic, my family and I had this tradition when foodservice was shut down and you could only get carry out. We started a tradition that on Friday nights, we would order carry out. We’re a family of three, so we would rotate one person got to choose each Friday. We still kind of do it today, but we don’t necessarily do carry out; we’ll go out to eat.

But one Friday, my son said, “It’s my pick. And I want to make at home, great hamburgers. And have all the fixings and make fancy hamburgers and do it together in the kitchen, all three of us making these.” So, we went to the grocery store and picked out the best we could find.

So that’s my narrative example of what I’m asking as far as the visual crossover among channels. Because I personally experienced that when we were in the bread aisle, looking for which type of bun we want to make our great burgers on. What do bakers need to keep in mind, especially those who might be selling into multiple channels like foodservice and retail?

Charpentier: I like your tradition; that’s a fun one. It’s fun to ask everyone to be in charge of the meal. But in terms of visual quality crossover among different channels, I think consumers are looking for, and they expect, the same level of visual quality of attention in detail that you would get at a high-end restaurant. They would love to get it, and right now what we’re talking about “Hey, there’s a big opportunity right there, and how do we do it?”

Similarly, I think visually appealing, high-quality baked goods from a bakery may be expected to have the same quality and attention to detail as ones that are sold at a specialty food store online, like Whole Foods or something like that.

But the visual quality from consumers using our senses, like taste, smell, visual, hearing, etc., I think visual is the biggest way we can attract customers in. And visual quality of a baked good will communicate the level of quality and craftsmanship regardless, in my opinion, of the channel through a sold. It’s not just saying, “Oh, it sold. Why not have a premium in a vending machine?” Again, it’s rethinking how we’re doing things and rethinking what’s premium and what do we want? And throughout, we’ve clearly determined that all of us as consumers, all of us will spend, regardless of demographics, extra money for something we consider premium.

Spencer: Yeah, the research is showing that based on what I’m seeing. In all the research reports, despite inflationary pressure that we talked about in the very first episode, consumers are showing that they’re willing to spend more money for a higher-quality baked good.

Charpentier: And then that’s why we’re still seeing smaller retail bakeries in Philadelphia or in New York still have a line of door to buy a premium bread or a premium sandwich. But again, through the weeks of conversation, it’s about the experience. It must be visually appealing, and that can crossover among different channels. It must taste good and have a great texture. That will bring people back. So, it’s almost like Anton Ego from Ratatouille. Make sure no matter what, people can go back to that.

Spencer: Yes. And I think that is the perfect sentiment to close out this season on. By the way, I do love Ratatouille. It’s such a great movie. Richard, thank you so much for having this conversation with me and really diving into the technical aspects that are really required for bakers to think about creating high-quality premium baked goods, because you’re right: people are lining up down the street at the retail level. Commercial bakers have an opportunity to tap into this trend and make great baked goods. So, thank you so much for sharing your wisdom and your insight. It’s truly been a pleasure to chat with you over these past five weeks.

Charpentier: It was my pleasure to chat with you, Joanie, and I hope that this will inspire people listening to think differently. So, thank you for letting me be part of the conversation.