Welcome to Season 7 of the Troubleshooting Innovation podcast. Joanie Spencer, editor-in-chief for Commercial Baking, speaks with Richard Charpentier, CMB, and CEO of consulting company Baking Innovation. Their conversation explores the technical aspects of creating high-quality, premium baked goods on a commercial scale. Sponsored by Puratos’ Sunset Glaze.

In this episode, you’ll learn effective strategies to upgrade the most important attributes of baked goods — taste and texture — for a premium experience.

Learn more about this season here, and listen to Troubleshooting Innovation on Apple, Spotify, Google and Stitcher.

Joanie Spencer: Hi, Richard. Thanks for joining me this week.

Richard Charpentier: Hey, Joanie. I am glad to be part of it. Thank you for having me.

Spencer: Yes, absolutely! So, we’ve had some great conversations, ranging from market conditions to the definition of premium, and we’re really dialing in. So this week, we’re going to talk about taste and texture and how to premiumize those aspects of baked goods. First, I want to look at it from the broader perspective. From the consumer perspective, what would you say are the taste expectations that are associated with a premium item?

Charpentier: That’s a great question. I’ll put my consumer hat on and think about what people want to consume. The first thing is satisfying flavors. Look at the example of a premium croissants. From a taste standpoint, you’re thinking it is going to taste buttery, it’s going to have a long-lasting impression on the taste buds. I think taste is essential.

Another aspect of what the taste expectation associated with premium, it’s going to be when it is well balanced. We’ve tried different cakes. When you get a premium chocolate cake and it’s delicious, it’s a perfect balance of sweetness and chocolate. It’s just perfect, and it’s optimized. It is the same thing if it’s something more savory. You’re going to have the spices and the herbs, and it will be more balanced.

And then it has to be something natural and authentic flavors. Those simple, unique flavors. Consumers expect premium baked goods to use natural and authentic ingredients, and that’s going to contribute to the taste experience rather than the product that uses artificial flavors or any other mimicking flavors. But if you have a strawberry cake, and use fresh strawberry and make strawberry coulis, and you have the intensity in the right season, I think that is the key.

The last point is consistency of the tastes. There’s nothing worse for me if you go to a great restaurant, and everybody is raving about a dish or dessert, and you try it but it’s not the same. It is expected, when you have premium baked goods, to be consistent in terms of taste.

Spencer: That is so important. I want to ask you your opinion on this. I was talking to a baker the other day, and he’s a product developer, so he focuses a lot on R&D and actually has an engineering background. So, we were talking about product development and consumer expectations, and you think about formulaically, this is how a product should taste. The formulas is nailed, and we got it right, and this is how the consumer should receive it, but that’s not always the case. The consumer sometimes has different expectations.

We were kind of joking around with the analogy of when Coca Cola came out with New Coke, and formulaically it was an improvement on the original, but consumers did not accept it and they did not like it. I guess my question for you is, in your opinion, what does it take for bakers to get in alignment with their beliefs on what a product should be and the expectation that a consumer has for that product?

Charpentier: The beliefs and expectations relating to the consumer … I think the first thing is how bakers can align for that because R&D can create the best product, but how do we get there? I think it’s for bakers to conduct great market research because to truly understand the needs and value of your target market.

The second thing I would tell bakers is to listen to customer feedback and respond accordingly. I have worked in bakeries, even in R&D. I would think, “This is going to be an amazing product.” It comes back where the customer of that brand might have a great product, but that’s not what they want from the brand. So, listen to customers’ feedback and any concerns they might have and what they want. And I think bakers should learn more about how to provide a variety, which retail bakeries already do, of different products that can cater to different tastes and preferences because that’s going to be very important to reach, in my opinion, a wider audience, and to make sure you get a little bit of something for everyone. Maybe that might not be doable for everyone to do everything because everybody’s cutting SKUs and trying to focus.

And then overall, just be honest and transparent about the ingredients. I think people love it. You see a lot of small shops, saying, “Made with local wheat” or “Chicken sandwich made from local chicken farm.” Because as we mentioned in the previous weeks, Gen Z and that population want to know where their food comes from and how it’s made.

Authenticity and transparency, I think, are strong to build consumer trust. And keep up with the trends, stay up to date, like we’ve seen with ABA or all the trade shows that we go to. We often see new ingredients and new techniques. I think it’s important to stay up to date and incorporate whatever new things or new flavor you see and then try them in your products. Put in the R&D and put in the work because that’s the only way you can, in my opinion, stay competitive and appeal to changing consumer preferences.

Spencer: Definitely. Let’s talk about where flavor comes into play in the product development process itself, because taste is king. Where do you place that in the timeline of product development? Do you establish what the flavor is going to be and formulate around that? Or is it more that a great tasting product is just the end result of a great process that has other considerations? And then if that’s the case, what are those other considerations?

Charpentier: Very good point. First, I do agree with you, Joanie, taste to me really is king. And it’s a crucial aspect for any food product. The way I look at it is consumers will connect with our food through the experience of what it tastes like. As we mentioned earlier, you go back because you’re thinking about it. Quick side note: I’m a fan of the movie, Ratatouille. And you see the restaurant critic, named Anton, when he sits there on a chair and eats the ratatouille, it takes him back to his childhood. Great tasting food leaves a long-lasting impression with people.

There are others, like the texture, the appearance and nutritional value are also important. But the taste is important. I do believe that from a human standpoint, we’re using our senses to connect with people. I think taste is the most important and if a product only tastes great one time, and it is inconsistent in flavor and texture that can lead to people not liking. From an R&D standpoint, if it tastes good, how do you maintain the consistency of the taste? How do you ensure the ingredients you’re using create a unique taste?

If it’s, let’s say, if you produce honey bread. How do you rely on this once you get into shelf life? How do you ensure that taste will remain? That’s why it takes a lot of R&D to ensure the flavor, or the taste of the product, will not deteriorate especially when you use premium ingredients over time, and you have the proper packaging. And I think R&D in the product development process has to ensure that the flavor is prominent. So, how do you elevate that product to where the flavor would be there? And that’s where R&D will be resourceful by finding extracts strong natural flavors and those ways of enhancing the overall flavor and taste of the product to make every bite basically taste the same.

Because as we mentioned in previous weeks, part of premium is giving an experience along with the value to the consumers. I think there’s a lot of work, and we could be talking for hours about taste. I go back to a place, a bakery or restaurant, or buy a product because I think, if you think of a food you really love, you can almost remember what it tastes like. Then you can have your brain connected with it. There’s a lot of consideration to be put into how taste is being delivered in products.

Spencer: I want to now move from taste into texture. There are expectations that come with high quality baked goods in terms of texture. How are those expectations tied to specific products? I’m thinking about the density for cake, crumb structure for bread, even the texture of the crust of the bread or mouthfeel for cookies. How does a baker formulate to reach specific texture goals for a premium product?

Charpentier: In the premium category, as mentioned, consumers have a different level of expectation, other than saying, “I’m buying a cake and it’s a chocolate cake.” Now, when we talk about density of cake, let’s use the example of a premium moist chocolate cake. The texture expectation for someone buying a moist premium chocolate cake, then the first texture expectation consumers are going to have is that the cake is going to be moist, it’s going to be tender, it will have a velvety texture, a little bit of light, fluffy texture, so you don’t have to chew. But it’s dense enough for the crumb to hold the richness and the layers of chocolate mousse in the middle while delivering all the flavor.

In order to achieve that, it’s going to be required that, one, formulators are using high quality ingredients (chocolate ganache, maybe on the top, which is a little more fat texture, because fat is a great carrier to deliver overall flavor). But texture is a combination of attention to detail to ensure consistency. I keep bringing it back consistency, but overall, it is what the bakers will do to find the right balance of the cake density to create something that is the right texture and the right flavor. The desired density of a cake is going to vary, also based on the type of cake, the personal preference of the consumers and geographically, where are they located?

Again, there are differences. Pancake has a certain texture, and a premium pancake is going to have a certain texture that people target. An angel food cake is going to be expected as a premium. Angel food is expected to be light, fluffy and fresh. So, the density of the cake, a lot of it has to do with freshness or a perceived freshness, and each cake has its own unique density.

I know you mentioned bread. It is a little bit of a different category because density is a key structure to me. It’ll determine the quality of the bread. If you look at a baguette — and French bakers often will cut the baguette sideways and they say “Oh look at the crumb!” — and you will have larger pockets, but that is a premium baguette. And if you have been to IBIE or the bakery show in Paris where they have competitions of the best baguette, usually the best baguettes have lots of holes and are really opened up.

But in contrast, if you look at a manufacturer like Dave’s Killer Bread, and you’re a consumer buying that, and you see the crumb structure of a baguette that has lots of holes, you’re going to call and complain. So that’s not a good bread. Another great example is the English muffin, with the nooks and crannies. They’re looking for the holes in there. And that’s part of what makes the product premium.

So yes, to your point here, the crumb structure can be a determining factor of what is being perceived by the consumers as premium, based on the type of bread and examples we’re giving. Cookies is a category on its own. It’s kind of an impulse buy like cakes. They all have their own unique texture, and I think it varies greatly on the texture of cookies because what’s good about cookies and some bread but less so, is that cookies you can put almost any inclusions you want into it. It could be chunky inclusions, like pretzels and nuts that create a crunchy texture versus a simple cookie, a soft and chewy cookie or a Tollhouse chocolate chip cookie, which melts in your mouth.

But texture is still a very important aspect of product development for bakers because it will greatly impact the overall eating experience for people buying it, but overall, you see even on the retail side, the soft and chewy people love them. Or you see the cookies that when you travel on a plane, you get those little Lotus cookies that are crunchy, sweet and grainy. Each cookie has its own texture per se, and I think R&D formulators can create cookies that are delicious but they can create a different unique and appealing texture that will set them apart from the competition by just the wiliness to make it premium. I think with cookies, the texture is also dictated by the type of inclusion, and you can make a cookie that is worth $10 based on the type of inclusions in there. I love playing with cookies; they’re fun.

Spencer: I’m going to throw another one out there because this kind of comes from the conversation I had with this baker I had the other day … brioche. So, in my opinion, brioche, by its pure existence, is a premium product. I will order a hamburger on a menu, even if I didn’t come into a restaurant to get a hamburger, I will change and order and get a hamburger if it’s made on a brioche bun. I’m of the opinion that French toast should be made with brioche and nothing else. So, when you think about a product like that that just inherently has an expectation of premium just because it exists, how do you formulate something like brioche in terms of creating a texture that’s of premium quality?

Charpentier: I agree a brioche is premium by itself. I would say simply, don’t skimp on the ingredients. There’s a lot of brioches out there, and what I’ve seen in the industry is a lot of people want to make premium brioche but they’re afraid of making premium brioche, because it uses butter, milk and eggs. We are unfortunately in an industry where allergens are still an issue, but it starts with the premium ingredients.

And you raised an excellent point, brioche by itself, even for the French, isn’t an everyday purchase. We buy baguettes every day when you go to the local bakery. But when you buy a brioche, it is often on the weekend, when there was something special. We knew that it was different.

So, the key is don’t try to make your brioche the same way you’re making other products. And maybe consumers today in the US, because it’s a growing segment, they haven’t tried all the brioche. But if you try premium, high-level butter or high-level eggs, you will realize this is a treat. So, it’s about the value and the experience versus just having bread that says brioche on it, in my opinion.

Spencer: That totally makes sense. We are speaking specifically about commercially produced baked goods. So, what must a baker consider about the texture of a product when it’s part of an automated process?

Charpentier: When it comes down to commercially produced baked goods, bakers have to consider how the automated process will affect the texture of the final product. Because I believe that automation can be used to produce high-quality artisan bread. I think it’s important to make sure that the texture is consistent across a large volume. We talked about texture and taste, but automation and what I’ve learned from an R&D standpoint …

I had a boss for years that would say, when you work on a bench, you’ve done 90% of the work. Now the real work is to take the product from the bench to the line. That 10% is almost like running a marathon. The last part is the most challenging, and the most difficult to do. Because now you’re working with machines, and you’re working with different temperatures.

So, it’s important to set critical control points and allow real time measurement and data about the fermentation. It’s important to have proper training and education with the employees to the expectations of, “Hey, this is a premium product,” and again, monitoring and controlling the texture during the automated process. For example, winter vs. summertime. Packaging your bread a little too hot is going to change the texture, and it might soften it. Did you bake it properly, what’s the finished moisture of the product?

You have to have very tight specs for your product versus a product that you just say, “This is good enough.” When it gets to premium, it requires more attention to details, and TLC (tender love and care) to your product. That’s what I’ve learned. If people are paying more, we must put the effort and automated line in the bakery on the high volume to ensure that the customers are getting the same experience day in and day out.

It goes back to the brewing industry. If you go buy a specialty craft beer or chocolate malted and you really love the flavor, when you go buy it again, you want to make sure you get the same thing. And how do we do that as bakers? It’s more complex. We could talk for hours about it. But overall, those are the sort of key takeaway points that I would like to share.

Spencer: I like what you said about consistency because you’re right that you can nail a premium product. But if you don’t nail it the second time, then you got to go back to the drawing board. And so, automation does really play an important role in the consistency of a premium baked good. But more importantly than that is not forgetting the role of the baker in the process. Creating a premium baked good in an automated process is not a “set it and forget it” situation, right?

Charpentier: It’s going to require more work. I think often people tend to build lines where if you press a button, it pumps out a lot of burger buns, and they’re consistent. That’s great for the everyday market. But once you go to premium, it’s going to be determined by what is the value added or the “premiumness” that is added to your product and how do you maintain it? And I’ve seen bakers on full automation doing premium products, so I know it’s doable.

It’s similar to when you go to a small restaurant where they have two servers, and they can serve 60 people with two line cooks. Then you go to premium restaurants where you have 30 people in the kitchen, and the plates are all decorated. But you’re paying the price difference. You’re paying more premium for the fancy restaurant. And that’s where I think the service around it or the maintenance of the consistency of the product is going to be more crucial.

Spencer: And do you think this is what we talked about in that first episode, training must come into play? Do you think this is an aspect where automation can’t necessarily replace people? That there still has to be a level of training to understand how it all works together, the product development of a premium item and the automated process of the premium item? There must be a knowledge transfer to make sure is being produced at the highest possible quality?

Charpentier: Definitely, it’s super important. Because if you’re building more technical things, you need more technical people. Look at the technology we’re using today. Because I remember my dad, back in the day he would say, “Oh, if the TV breaks, I can fix it. It’s easy.” Nowadays with technology, nobody can fix it unless you have trained technicians, and you must send it away. So, it’s the same thing for baking.We’re accepting the new automation and new technology, but we must consider if we have moved the training to match the high level of automation that’s happening today.

Spencer: When you think about training, you must marry training on the equipment with training and product development. And even though those career paths run parallel and don’t really intersect at some point, they’re going to have to, right?

Charpentier: Yes, and especially when you’re thinking of automation for creating premium products. And then especially in terms of consistency, it’s optimization of all sides. And what I’ve seen from my personal experience is a lot of big, automated lines are being set up and everything is being done very well. But one thing that I’ve observed is we’re doing everything from an engineering standpoint and then it’s perfect.

And that will allow them to basically achieve the volume and the robots will do all the work. But once you bring more automation, it is going to automatically require highly trained technicians and also bakery experts to monitor the process because now you’re building more technical advancement. And that’s going to require more involvement from people and more training.

In my opinion, when we do this type of automation — yeah, engineering is great — but the bakery scientists and bakers should be part of the conversation when designing and reviewing an automated process, especially for premium. Because now we’re dealing with yeast, so there’s a biological aspect to it. So, we’re talking about science. When we deal with a kick, we’re talking about a leavening system through chemistry. So now we’re bringing big time science and if you think of engineering, engineering is not chemistry and engineering is not biology. I think we must think of marrying both to create the best.

And I’ve seen it on large scale automation in my past where sometimes, when it’s just engineering focused, then they must work all the issues later today. Because baking is all about time and temperature, and the bakers who do it every day, they know. I think it’s good to bring the bakers, to bring the biologists, the chemists and engineers together to have a better rate of success while creating premium products down the road.

Spencer: I totally agree with you, and I know a baker at a larger company, and her role is commercialization. Her background is bakery science. So, she is one of those who understands the chemistry and the science behind the formula. But she can look at what the bakery has in terms of automation and be able to say, “This will work on an automated line or not. We need to go back to the drawing board and figure it out.” I think there needs to be more roles like that, don’t you think?

Charpentier: 100%. I’ve been here in the US, doing what I’m doing for baking for the last 30 years, and I’ve seen the change where sometimes we’re focused on the throughput. And throughput, just focusing on that, with the machines, it’s not automatically giving you a premium. It’s throughput. What are you putting through? To get to that premium level, that’s where, based on your friend that you had a conversation with, it requires everybody’s involvement. I’ve seen back in the 90s where everybody would be involved.

I’ll share a story that I’ve heard from, when I was starting in the industry, it was at Entenmann’s Bakery, when Entenmann’s was still owned by Mr. Entenmann. They were saying they had a challenge where the engineers would make some type of a cherry cake and then the machine would pick the cake and put it in the box, but then it would slide and the headspace, and they could not figure it out, until they ask a baker say “What should we do?” And the guy said, “It’s easy. You just put a cherry on top of the cake.” The cherry basically created the space that no matter what the cream was in between the cake on top, would not smear on the packaging because the cherry was protecting the cake.

That’s a perfect example that if they had not brought the baker at the table, they would have never figured out how to do it or it would have been a costlier way to do it. I know for years that everybody involved at Entenmann that I met — that guy was long retired already — but he was considered a hero because he helped make a product successful by thinking of the small things that other people would not have thought of. So the moral of the story, get everybody involved, because you don’t know where your best idea is going to come from.

Spencer: Yeah, absolutely. And that’s such a great note to end on, Richard, and a great segue into next week’s episode, which is all around the look of the finished product for marketability and gaining a higher price point. So, I’m excited to dive into that with you next week. But for this week, thank you so much for your insight and wisdom around taste and texture.

Charpentier: Always a pleasure, Joanie, and we’ll see you next week.