Welcome to Season 12 of the Troubleshooting Innovation podcast. Joanie Spencer, editor-in-chief for Commercial Baking, is spending this season with Tony Martin, president of Martin’s Famous Pastry Shoppe. They’re exploring how this company has grown from a family-owned brand into a national icon. Sponsored by AMF Bakery Systems.

In our fifth and final episode, Tony dives into how the company’s growth over time has transformed its marketing strategies. He also offers insight into how Martin’s incorporates the latest trends into existing operations.

Learn more about this season here, and tune into Troubleshooting Innovation on Apple or Spotify.

Joanie Spencer: Tony, welcome back.

Tony Martin: Oh, it’s good to be here.

Spencer: Okay, it’s our last week together. I have to say, I’m going to miss talking to you.

Martin: Well, me too. It’s been fun hearing all these questions. It makes me think, as well.

Spencer: Awesome, awesome. Okay, so this one’s going to be really fun. I chose to close out the month with this conversation around marketing, and I think it’s going to be a really fun conversation. And I really enjoyed my research on the Martin’s brand. So, this should be cool.

I want to kick it off by asking you to introduce me to Frannie.

Martin: Frannie … so Frannie’s our mascot, and she’s existed a long time. My grandfather started the pastry business, and he needed a fun mascot to go along with pastries. So, he invented Frannie, who’s this lovable little caricature who is holding up a donut on the original one, and then in the most recent one, I think she’s holding up a roll. But yeah, we created her a long time ago.

Spencer: Does she play a role just internally, or is she sort of a symbol externally of Martin’s?

Martin: She obviously plays a role internally from the standpoint of, she’s on every package, she’s on every rolling truck we have. She doesn’t play a key role, per se. It’s just more of a … to edify the fact that we want to be known as the fun bakery, and so there’s a little bit of fun in her. And, you know, we do participate, like I said, in some parades and picnics and things like that. And she may show up to a couple of little marketing events we do here internally for employees. And so it’s just kind of fun with the little kids who see her bopping around and just having a good time.

Spencer: Okay, I have an idea for you. I think around Halloween or in the fall, you should do a Frannie costume contest.

Martin: Yeah, that’s a good one. I’ll write that down.

Spencer: I think that would be fun. Okay, so on a serious note, though, a couple of weeks ago, we were talking about operational growth, and I mentioned this last week as well that your growth, your regional growth, and now you’ve grown nationally, it really stemmed from grassroots, not necessarily marketing. It was relationships and quality of the product. Now that you are really well known, not only nationally, but also internationally, how has that impacted your view of marketing strategies?

Martin: I would say … you mentioned it — we are a word-of-mouth company. That’s how we got started. Again, it’s our quality, it’s our service patterns and things like that, where we want to be always known as the reliable company. Repeatability. So, it’s always good. As you get larger, it’s a little bit harder to live up to that, but we really do try every day to do that.

As far as marketing goes, we just do, perhaps marketing to the standard retailer, have short-term discounted products to try to get new introductory opportunities, as well as through events like snowstorms and things like that where there’s a massive buy-in and we put out as much product as we can in order to capture that. That was our method of marketing for many, many, many years.

In more recent years, as we started becoming a little bit more well known on the foodservice side … everybody has this concept of foodies … but as the foodies and the chefs started to one-up themselves and try to really take it to the next level, we entered in a bunch of contests, like burger bashes and things like that, where more folks got an opportunity to see us for the first time, and then they, of course, would take it back to their restaurants and their area of the country. So, foodservice has really taken us to the next level. The Shake Shacks of the world, the Dave’s Hot Chicken are two of our largest ones.

But many, many regional restaurant chains now are starting to take a look at it. They want to be successful, so they look and see what others are using to make them successful and that has translated into much more well-known, and of course, it kind of builds on itself. We’re very new at marketing. We’re just now kind of, obviously, scratching the surface. We don’t do national advertising. We do more social marketing, where, again, through foodies and other networks like that, where we can try to get our market and our label out in front of people.

Spencer: So, who would you say is Martin’s core demographic?

Martin: Well, I’d say from a retail standpoint, it’s a family; it’s somebody who is trying to feed a family. We are obviously less expensive than going out to eat, but we’re above what we call a “belly stuffer.” It’s a product that is maybe not so good to eat and falls apart. Our product stays together. It’s all about the quality, and it’s all about that bun and eating experience. We like to say we want them to have a cherished eating experience, eating our product.

Spencer: That makes sense. So, what do you think are the most important aspects of … I mean, your logo hasn’t really changed, has it? It’s pretty classic. Your brand is classic.

Martin: Yeah. We would fall into that nostalgia, I think, look and feel.

Spencer: So, what’s the key, or what’s the most important thing to consider, to maintain that look and feel, but still expand your presence to a modern market like foodies?

Martin: That’s a good question. I think we’ve tried to leave the back packaging open enough that actually our product is selling for us. The product quality we want to always look nice. We call it an OREO look. When you look at our roll, it has a brown top and a brown bottom, a little bit lighter in the middle, almost like an OREO does. So, that look and feel we want to be presentable through the bag and clear enough that they can actually see the quality of the product.

Spencer: And your packaging is really clear.

Martin: It is, yeah. And we work with our vendors to make sure that we maintain that. We’re probably some of the most picky, I think they tell us. Our yellow needs to be our yellow and the red needs to be our red. And if it doesn’t work, we work with them to get it correct.

Spencer: So, here’s kind of a random question: Are there any implications when you look at your packaging equipment in terms of what types of bag you use, or how it’s closed, with the visibility of the products? Do you take that into consideration when you’re looking at your packaging lines overall, not just the materials?

Martin: We try to. Obviously, anytime you have a plastic bag you want it to not be damaged in any way through the process of packaging it. The less times you can touch it and bend it, the more clear it is. And so, we try to make sure that we have an automated process to put that package into a tray and get that tray, of course, on a pallet. So, the less times you can touch it, the better it’ll look. And of course, we use a closer on the end that maintains the quality and resealability for the customer. It’s a Kwik Lok. So, we take the Kwik Lok off, and you can take the product out, and then you can put it back on. You hope you put it back on.

Spencer: I will tell you; my husband is a stickler about that. That’s exactly what I was wondering. When your packaging is really focused on the visibility of your product, it seems like you would want to place a lot of emphasis on how it goes into the bag.

Martin: We do. We care a lot about the process in packaging. We don’t always think about it, but back in the days when I worked over there, we put it in by hand. We would grab every pack and put it in the tray manually. Today, that’s all automated, and it definitely improved the look of the product on the shelf.

Spencer: Okay, so back to branding. There is the trend, especially with foodies, but really it’s everywhere, and it’s “newstalgia”, and that’s this idea of modern twists on familiar favorites. I feel like this is a space that Martin’s can play in really well. How do you see the brand kind of leaning into the “newstalgia” trend?

Martin: You have to, right, because it’s our name on the bag, and whether you’re a Martin or whether you’re just an employee here, we want everyone to feel like they’re providing a value. We’re not the most expensive product, we’re not the cheapest product, but we want to give you the best value. And that, to me, that part falls into this “newstalgia” position, because we all look back and think things were better in the past. It’s just how we are as a people, and we want that look and feel to be reminiscent of, “Oh, I remember when…”.

You know, you have a cookout, a lot of times you have family over or friends, and so that product and the look and feel the bag … we really don’t want nouveau. We want something that is reminiscent of quality of the past and a staying power for the future. And when you see value, to us a value is not only in dollars, what it costs, but hey, our product, you eat every roll in there. You don’t eat half the bag, and you put it in your drawer. Because the product quality is lasting, we particularly are focused on only leaving it on a retail shelf for four days before we pull it back off, because we want it to be, in the customer’s home, really good to eat for the next, you know, 10 days after that. So, it’s better to wait. It’s better value,

Spencer: I do think that with “newstalgia”, Martin’s Potato Rolls has that kind of hometown, comforting feeling. It’s got that classic logo. So, with “newstalgia”, people are wanting to put new twists on things, and the bread is the foundation for a burger or sandwich. This is perfect. People can really get creative and try new things with a classic product.

Martin: And we actually do some of that on our website, for the recipes. We’ll do some fun things with it. Some people will actually take a waffle iron and actually roll it flat and they’ll make a waffle out of a roll.

Spencer: Oh, this is a huge trend. This “Will It Waffle?” So people are waffling Martin’s rolls?

Martin: Yeah, right, and you can put a scoop of vanilla ice cream on it.

Spencer: I have to try this.

Martin: Yeah, it’s a lot of fun.

Spencer: That’s awesome. Oh, I love it. I love that people are waffling Martin’s potato rolls. That’s amazing.

Okay, so we’ve talked a lot this entire month about Martin’s as a multi-generational family business. What do you see as the relationship between the generations of Martin’s ownership and the generations of your consumers?

Martin: Well, we think that the generations here obviously represent the generations of our customers. What I mean by that is, we’ve been around in our legacy markets now long enough that you have multi-generations that are like, “Hey, I remember when my grandmother had your product and I loved it, and now I feed it to my family.” So from that perspective, we are multi-generational.

Now, when I first got here, we were probably only one or one and a half generations, but now we’re beyond that. And so, it’s kind of cool to see how … I’ll see the pull through of what they remember was a fond memory that they can continue on now with their family and then share it with their kids and their grandkids. So, from that standpoint, the multi-generational family here can, I guess, exemplify what’s happening in culture in general, at least in our retail market. Foodservice is very new for us. So, we’ll see how that, you know, is the staying power there. The smashburger thing is kind of everywhere. So, we’ve ridden that wave, and it’s been pretty exciting.

Spencer: That’s awesome. And, you know, I should clarify: There are lots of brands in the US market that multiple generations of consumers have enjoyed, but I just feel like as the same family that started the business, and the third generation of that family, to see each generation serving each generation, I feel like it means something just a little bit more. Do you feel like you’re a little bit more invested in it because you’re a multiple-generation family, and your grandparents served a generation of consumers, and your parents served a generation of consumers, and now you are? There’s a little bit more at stake for you.

Martin: Sure. There’s always, I would say, a little bit of pressure. We want to make sure that we don’t mess it up, right? There’s always the third generation that messes things up. So, we’re always cognizant of what we’re doing and how we’re doing it, and for what reason that we’re doing it. So, I agree with you. It is something that is on our mind.

What we’ve seen is, I guess, with the social media today that didn’t exist 20 years ago, our customers can tell us a little bit more about how much they like our product, or what they like about our product, and maybe what they don’t like about our products, things that have changed. So, we’re much more open to that, and we’re listening, trying to make sure that we continue doing the right things.

Again, I think it’s exciting. It’s an opportunity to provide a product at a really good value that people get excited about. To us, sometimes it’s just bread and rolls, and we’re almost like, “Really? This is amazing.” Yeah, we’ll keep making it.

Spencer: Yeah, I mean, when it’s been part of your family this entire time, it is just like, “This is just what we eat.” But, for consumers, it really is something special.

So, we had a week where we talked about product development. I just wanted to revisit it for a second. Can you talk about the benefits and challenges that come with promoting new products outside of that core potato-based product? We talked about how to like, sort of, what’s behind the development of those products, but what does it look like from a promotional standpoint?

Martin: We promote those items very similarly to how we do our potato products. Non-potato products, whether it be the swirl, which in fact, has a lot of potato flour in it, or our white dough, which doesn’t have any potato flour, we market it very similar. We probably don’t do it any differently, frankly.

But what we have been told by retailers when we say we’re going to come out with a new item, in some cases, they are less than enthused, because they’re like, “You’re only known for the potato product.” So, you always become typecast to who you are. And, you know, do you run with that, or do you try to work against it? And so, we’ve kind of done a little bit of both.

We market it the same way, but we try to offer it, maybe at a deeper discount for a little while to see if we can get it to take off. And I mentioned it, too, that new markets don’t know what potato [bread] is, so they’re a little apprehensive to try it the first time. So again, our white product, our non-potato product, can be picked up first, and so we will promote it heavier, maybe in that market, in order to get it off the ground, and then slowly try to introduce the potato product into the retailer as well, and see how that goes.

Spencer: That’s really interesting that just kind of depending on the region, and if they recognize potato bread, that … which one comes first?

Martin: I think it has a lot to do with, first-to-market. I would think this is probably a true statement, but potato product exists in the US at the retailer market because of Martin’s. Prior to Martin’s, there wasn’t anyone selling potato product.

So, as we started performing well, of course, everybody … you try to copy each other a little bit … we didn’t serve all markets that we’re in today. So, when we weren’t first-to-I market, maybe they tried potato product and it was just, “Huh, oh, ho hum. It wasn’t much different than my regular so I’m going to go back to what I was used to.”

It’s not until we have some sort of an event, like a snowstorm, or hurricane or something like that, where you may have an opportunity to try it for the first time and go, “Oh, wow, that was different. I like that,” and they try it again. So, we can absolutely see when our market share will go up when there’s an event like that, and then it doesn’t dip back down to where it was. So that’s how we know, “Hey, we have new customers.”

Spencer: It’s really cool. I mean, so I’m in the Midwest, and we get crazy weather. And there are certain times — late spring, tornado season — people will stock up. But winter in Kansas City could potentially last from October to May because you never know what’s going to happen in fall and early spring. But I bet in the Northeast, you guys are very similar, so watching the weather has got to be, sort of, part of your go-to-market strategy.

Martin: It absolutely is for sure. We look and predict. The bakery tends to look at the weather more than even the sales department, because they need more time to react, obviously. So, we think of snowstorms, particularly in the northeast because we get Nor’easter-type events, which, you know, a lot of times, we can have no snow, and then all of a sudden, we can have 40 inches of snow. And those kinds of events, they’re predicted, which is key: Predicted. That’s when you have folks go out and, of course, get the milk, eggs and bread. That is a go-to-market strategy, for sure.

Spencer: That’s so interesting. I never even thought about that. And I see it. I see it all the time, like on the 10-day forecast. You know exactly how far out you’ve got to do your grocery shopping because it’s about to get crazy. So interesting.

Okay, so kind of on that note, we talked about bun season. I think that was last week. Bun season is real. But can you sort of educate me on seasonality for potato rolls? Are there holidays or times of year where it’s more popular, aside from weather events and barbecues?

Martin: Yeah, for sure. Like I said, you could call us a roll or bun producer that happens to make bread. So, we’re very attuned to the demand on the roll market and through the summertime, you can have two times the amount of sales on a weekend than you do, let’s say in a January, February, March, time period just because, again, people aren’t eating outside, and typically rolls are used for barbecues or an eating out experience.

It wasn’t, frankly, until McDonald’s in the ’50s that anybody even used a roll. Everybody used bread for everything. In fact, my wife grew up in Ohio, and they never used rolls. They only ever used bread at home to make sandwiches. Well, I grew up in a household that never had bread. We always had rolls. When we were packing lunches for school, it was on a roll. Frankly, it’s easier. We like the hinge on our roll, and that keeps all the mess inside. So, for kids, it’s a good opportunity to help them eat and not let it all fall down over top of them.

But, back to the demand cycle, when you have to build a plant to satisfy the demand with the high numbers in the summertime, you’re going to struggle with underutilization in the wintertime. That’s always been a bit of a challenge whether it’s a roll line … so, we actually created or bought lines that will do both now. So, it’ll do bread and rolls on the same line, and that was a big benefit for us.

Spencer: Nice. That is flexibility at its finest. That’s amazing. Okay, we have talked on and off about the foodservice side, and that’s something that Martin’s is relatively new to, but where you have seen a lot of success. From a marketing standpoint, well, from every standpoint, it’s a totally different animal. How have you been able to leverage relationships with customers like Shake Shack or Smashburger to a consumer audience? Is it even possible? Or do the potato rolls just speak for themselves?

Martin: The phenomena of Shake Shack to the burger world has been … obviously, we love the fact that the partnership is there, but they’ve been such a huge success, not only in this country but around the world. And as they’ve matured and gotten, I’d say, a lot of recognition for the success they’ve had, we were able to kind of lever along with that and other customers wanted to try to do the same thing. Because again, the smashburger craze is real. It’s happening all over the world, and it’s amazing with transportation today that it is feasible and possible to provide what they need, because it’s a unique product, especially in different parts of the world.

But even in the US, again, we were only East Coast-based, so nobody knew who we were. In some cases, maybe they still don’t know who we are. But Shake Shack … they’re a great marketer, and one of the things they came up with a couple years ago was a book on how to make a Shack burger. And as they went through there, they called it out there, “Hey, you need to use a Martin’s potato roll, and this, that and the other thing.” And so, it was great that they were willing to partner with us and name us as the preferred roll that they use. So, yeah, it’s been fantastic. We feel blessed to be part of that craze. And again, it’s all about the bun, and if it wasn’t the bun, we wouldn’t be here.

Spencer: That’s amazing. Congratulations on getting that business. And Shake Shack is something that’s not going anywhere. What an incredible piece of business to get to take your company into the future and just be part of. And, also, congratulations on the amazing endorsement for them to say, “To make this burger, you have to start with a Martin’s roll.” That’s incredible.

Martin: It’s been a great partnership. We started with them in New York when they started as a food cart for a fundraiser. That happened in the early 2000s or mid 2000s and we’ve just kind of partnered with them right along as they’ve grown. Danny Meyer has done a fantastic job with that business. And in fact, I ate at Shake Shack yesterday, and it’s amazing that they’re always the same. Top quality. They have customer service beyond most places. And it was really good. I enjoyed it.

Spencer: Hey, I just have to ask: If you’re eating at a Shake Shack, can you just be a regular consumer and enjoy it? Or are you like, “I’m testing my product here to make sure that the quality is up to spec.”

Martin: It’s both. It’s always both. As a baker, whether we go to a retail store or burger joint that’s using our product, we want to first be incognito, order the product, take a look at it, and then ask them, “How’s the product holding up? How’s our partner?” Whether it’s being distributed through a Sysco or something like that, or a local distributor, we want to know, “Are we holding up our end of the bargain, or are we doing a good job?” We always ask that question.

Spencer: You can’t ever turn it off.

Martin: Can’t.

Spencer: Tony, I have one last question for you, and it doesn’t necessarily have to do with the marketing theme, but more of a way to wrap up this entire conversation, which I have just thoroughly enjoyed, by the way. I’m going to ask you for sort of a message to the industry.

So, the baking industry, I’d say, in terms of its values, really does function a lot like a family. And so, if we were to look at the longevity of our industry, what advice would you give baking companies who might not necessarily be family-owned? What kinds of family values should every bakery have threaded throughout their business practices?

Martin: Great question. Obviously, bread is a historical staple. There’s probably not a food that is older than bread, and it’s so ingrained in our culture, at least Western culture, where it brings families together. When families come together, you always break bread. It’s even part of the way we talk. So, I would say, keep in mind who we are. We are an industry that provides an eating experience that is unique and different. We’re not the protein; we’re not the vegetables. We’re the start. We’re the ‘hold everything together’ because that’s who we are as an industry.

What we need to do in the future, of course, is to continue making it exciting. And how do we do that? We need to figure out ways to … because I think there’s a coming trend … make bread that has natural enzymes and things in it. How do we make it a better-for-you product? We’ve put vitamins and nutrients in our product for many years. It’s not required, but we put folic acid in. One of the things that folic acid … my dad was a big proponent of this, is to make sure that we are providing something that is a better-for-you item that helps young, developing infants and fetuses. So, it’s better for you.

Again, I think that’s going to be the trend of the future. How do we make bread even better for you in a recipe management process, whether it’s an additive or how we do it. Unfortunately, society is not jumping on the whole wheat side … it’s a great product, and it’s a healthy nutritional product, but as we’re seeing, consumers are tending to go away from that. So, we have to somehow market that back to them as “Hey, this is something that would help you maybe ultimately lose weight” because they have the false impression that the bread is what’s making them heavy. And as we say, it’s not the bread, it’s what you put in the bread that makes you heavy.

Spencer: Absolutely. Well, I think Martin’s is doing a great job with that.

Martin: Well, we’re trying to do our part.

Spencer: And I think you’re doing an incredible job with the work you do for ABA and participating on the board and carrying on that family tradition, not only leading your company but also serving the industry through your board service. So, thank you for that.

Martin: Oh, you’re very welcome.

Spencer: And thank you for this past month, Tony. You have incredible insight; your family story is incredible and your journey through this company is amazing. And if I could only remember one thing from this month, it would have to be I met someone who started as the pilot in his family’s business. I will never meet anybody else whose first role in their family business was as the company pilot. I guarantee.

Martin: It’s been a good ride, and we look forward to the future.

Spencer: You have shared, aside from the company pilot, you have shared just an incredible story. Thank you again for allowing us all to take a glimpse into your family business and what Martin’s brings to consumers, to restaurants and to the industry. Thanks so much. Tony.

Martin: Thank you, Joanie, this was fun.