Welcome to the sixth season of the Troubleshooting Innovation podcast. Joanie Spencer, editor-in-chief for Commercial Baking, visits with various members of the team at New Haven, CT-based Chabaso Bakery. Hear about their journey to becoming a Certified B Corporation and building a business as a force for good. Sponsored by JLS Automation.
This week’s episode features Rich Jamesley, Chabaso’s VP of operations and supply chain. He explores the ways this bakery operationalizes its values on the plant floor, from repurposing waste to hiring Afghan refugees.
Learn more about this season here, and listen to Troubleshooting Innovation on Apple, Spotify, Google and Stitcher.
Joanie Spencer: Hi, Rich. Thanks for joining me.
Rich Jamesley: Hi, Joanie.
Spencer: I am really excited for this episode because there can often be this assumption that being a B Corp and doing good in the world is separate from manufacturing and operations. And that’s not necessarily the case. Right?
Jamesley: Correct. I think it makes a difference on how you do business every day. And being part of the B Corp world empowers the people in the company to be a force for good.
Spencer: The first thing I want to do is lay the groundwork and talk about what makes Chabaso special from a production standpoint. This bakery is known for making good bread that’s good for you. From a manufacturing perspective, what would you say is the key to that?
Jamesley: I think when it comes to artisan bread, you have special steps that are taken in order to make the bread good for you. And the people who are doing it make the difference as far as how they handle all the steps and ensure the bread is made up to the expectation of our artisan criteria.
Spencer: What does that require from your workforce in the plant?
Jamesley: One of the big pieces of our artisan is long fermentation. It allows the flavor of the bread to evolve into what is special and why people love our bread. I think the people who are doing our manufacturing know that and ensure all the quality steps are taken along the way.
Spencer: What would you say are the primary equipment implications for staying true to an artisan product while producing it at scale? I also just want to put things into perspective and set some context as far as the size of your bakery. I think you’re still considered midsize. When I was there in 2019, your output was about 100,000 pounds of dough a day. Is that still where you are?
Jamesley: We’re around 100,000. We do about 10 million pounds for the year. We’re a seven-day operation, three shifts and have roughly about 100 people who are working in the organization on the production floor.
Spencer: How does that impact those equipment needs to produce an artisan product at scale?
Jamesley: I think with COVID many people started making bread at home. And the one thing that you find is it takes a long time if you want to get the flavor characteristics and the formation of the bread. When you’re doing that on a large scale, there are many pauses, meaning we hold the dough so that the fermentation can develop, and then we have to monitor where it is from a development standpoint so it can progress through the various steps of mixing, shaping, proofing, baking and then, ultimately, packaging.
Spencer: I’m going to take a little sidebar here for a second because you mentioned the consumer trend of making your own sourdough during the pandemic. A lot of bakers I talked to who make artisan bread, that gave them a scare when they thought it was going to impact their business. But a lot of them discovered as the pandemic went on, consumers were like, “Wait, this is a lot harder than I thought it was. I think I just need to leave it to the pros and go to the store and buy some sourdough.” Is that sort of what happened for you guys?
Jamesley: I think as you just said, the time element to do it on a regular basis is very difficult. Even if you are home and have the opportunity to progress it, I think people have a newfound sense of what bread is. Having that artisan, high quality bread on a regular basis and being able to just go to the store and pick it up fits with many people, even if they would like to do it at home.
Spencer: I feel like what that trend really did was bring this heightened awareness to what good bread really means. It created a new love affair for consumers with bread.
Jamesley: I do believe that the indulgence people would like to have, that experience if they are at home as opposed to going to a restaurant of having that high quality bread at their fingertips without having to go through all the efforts of making it is a great experience for people.
Spencer: For sure. Chabaso makes good bread that’s good for you. That is really at the heart of everything you guys do, which leads us to Chabaso’s B Corp certification. This is where I want to really dive into this through an operational lens. Walk me through what are the aspects on the plant floor that already aligned with those values that made Chabaso a good candidate to be a Certified B Corporation?
Jamesley: From a B Corp standpoint, it’s all about people, planet, purpose and profit. Obviously, being part of a B Corp, you’re a for-profit organization. Most people or most companies can wrap their heads around, we have to make money to continue operations. But then how you do it, and centering it around the people, the planet and the purpose is what differentiates a B Corp from just a regular corporation. From a people standpoint, it’s looking at how you support the people within our bakery, as well as the community that we reside in, and then how do we handle the various environmental platform of what do we do with waste and how do we handle that? From a purpose standpoint, it’s the partners we pick and look to have them understand what B Corp is, what we’re trying to do and how we can partner with them. On the people standpoint, as we went through the pandemic and the challenges of finding people to work in our bakery, we ran through a lot of the challenges that many manufacturers did. We had a local community organization who was handling refugees from Afghanistan. We took that opportunity to partner with them. Their name is Iris. We were able to bring in over 20 Afghan refugees and have them be part of our team, and then learn how we can help the community, because they were now part of our community, and then have them come into the fabric of what Chabaso is and have them understand what we’re all about and then also learn what they’re about, because there are many different ways they do or handle their life that we had to learn and then figure out how we were going to support that within our operation. That’s an example of the people.
Spencer: You bring up a really good point that I don’t think we think about often enough, and that is when companies take in refugees as employees, people often think about how it’s helping the refugees. But I like what you said about how it caused you guys to change your thinking and learn about them. How was having the Afghan refugees as part of your workforce? How did that make Chabaso better?
Jamesley: I think it really showed how we are a welcoming organization and that we had different demographics within the facility. Many of them do not speak English or have limited English. You must figure out ways to communicate because manufacturing is all about teamwork. If you can’t communicate properly, you have challenges. That was probably our first barrier and thank God for translate on our phones. It was a way for us to communicate with them properly, and help the organization evolve with the new demographics.
Spencer: That’s amazing. I sidetracked you a little bit. I think the next one that you were going to touch on was the planet. Is that right?
Jamesley: Yeah. I think one of the things that is typical in baking is you have waste. There’s bread that is not up to the expectation from a finished standpoint. There’s also doughs that are made that cannot go into the finished product, and you have to put them to waste. A year ago, we came up with a system that would handle all our waste from a product standpoint, that would then go to an animal feed that then gets reprocessed and repurposed.
Spencer: That’s awesome. What did that do from a business perspective?
Jamesley: Obviously, if you have to put waste into a traditional garbage waste stream, you have a significant cost. Here, we’re able to repurpose it for use in another area that limits the impact on the environment.
Spencer: Okay, now: people, planet, …
Jamesley: Purpose. I think the purpose is really just how we do business inside the facility as well as how we do business with our partners and vendors who are supporting us, and them understanding we have these initiatives from a B Corp standpoint that we want to work with them on. I think the real benefit of B Corp — and we need to continue to foster this — is really the interdependencies across different B Corps. We can have mutual goals as far as what we’re trying to do with people and planet, as well as profit and progress. I think our purpose … as we talk to people, we want them to understand who we are, how we want to do business and how we can both benefit from having this partnership.
Spencer: For sure. Last week, Reed and I talked about how it’s a little bit of a tricky proposition for a food manufacturer to gain B Corp certification, as opposed to other “white collar” types of companies. It can be a little bit harder for a food manufacturer, and I think that’s evident in the proportion of food manufacturers and baking companies in particular who are part of the B Corp network. But sometimes when things are harder, that means they’re more worth doing. I have a 12-year-old son, and I have to tell him that all the time. The most worthwhile things in life are the ones that require the work. From your perspective working in operations, why do you think it’s important to have more food manufacturers certifying as B Corps despite those challenges?
Jamesley: I think from an impact on the community as well as the impact on the environment, we as manufacturers of food have a significant potential negative, and if we can be a force for good and you have more organizations and manufacturers interested in doing this, then you can have a better world for your 12-year-old, as well as my children going forward. I think being in manufacturing for 40 plus years and seeing what a B Corp is all about, really aligning an organization to be a force for good is important. I think people want to work for that. I had worked at another B Corp. What interested me most about Chabaso was that they were in the process of certification for B Corp. I think there are people who are interested in being this force for good, and I’m very proud that Chabaso has made that certification and will continue to evolve. The one benefit about a B Corp, or being within their certification processes, is you can’t stay at the same criteria, you have to keep getting better. It’s all about your newest improvement. Just because you had things for the last certification, you have to get better. It makes it more and more challenging each time. But I think it makes you better. You know, as you gave those words of wisdom to your son, I think it makes all the difference that you keep working harder to get better, because there’s always more opportunities. I think that’s what manufacturing is all about: How do you get better day to day? There’s always something you can do better, no matter how good you are.
Spencer: Right. I’m so happy you mentioned you have been in this industry for 40 years. That’s really important. You also used the term, “continuous improvement.” Do you think it’s fair to say that the term continuous improvement means something totally different when you’re a Certified B Corp, rather than just your average food manufacturer?
Jamesley: Yes. I think it’s the lens you’re looking at. What are going to go after and how does it fit from people and planet, and then ultimately, a profit standpoint? I think it’s really the lens. It’s not about giant steps. It’s about little steps and keep taking them and really having the organization fully wrapped around what we’re trying to accomplish as far as being a force for good.
Spencer: Yeah. I think that’s where a lot of the misconception comes in. Especially in such a cut and dry industry, like bakery and food manufacturing, where it’s very process oriented. It’s always been just a separate mindset. Doing good was something totally different from efficient manufacturing. But we’re coming into an era where companies like Chabaso, and other Certified B Corp bakeries are bringing those two concepts together and showing that when you put purpose behind what you’re doing, you can do good for the world while at the same time creating an efficient operation, right?
Jamesley: Yes, I think that’s what it’s all about as far as being a B Corp and wanting to continue to strive to get better. The other piece where I think some companies run into some challenges is under the governance and the commitment from the ownership of the company to support these initiatives. The criteria for that as you go through the certification process is challenging, and that group of owners have to support those initiatives.
Spencer: For sure. Chabaso was really lucky to have you on this team because you mentioned you came from a notable B Corp manufacturer in the baking industry, right?
Jamesley: Yes. I think that in my time being involved with B Corp both here and previously, it has given me a broader view of what you try to accomplish in manufacturing on a day-to-day, month-to-month basis. How do you look at the people within your organization and how you can support them better, as well as support the community? I wouldn’t call all the concepts new kinds of concepts, but stringing them all together and having that focus from the top down is powerful within the company.
Spencer: When you joined Chabaso, they were in the certification process. You came from a place that was very foundational as a B Corp. Then you join a team that is in the midst of the journey. That’s a really good lens to be looking at this through. During the application, what specific types of improvements did you see being made? Because that’s something that Reed, Charlie and I have talked about quite a bit this season, is that they were already aligned with B Corp in their hearts and with what they wanted to be. But in the process of that application, they obviously had to make some improvements. They were like, “Yeah, we see places where we can be better, and we can do better.” What did that look like for you on the plant floor?
Jamesley: The big step as we were going through the certification process was really figuring out how we could do more for our people. How do we add to the power of our organization from within the community? That turned out to be the refugee program. But knowing that we supported it, it was challenging. It was hard. From a quality management standpoint, it was hard for the people on the floor to figure out how do you do this, but I think it really showed what Chabaso saw was all about and that it is about a family. I think it really showed how strong the organization is, to have a different population come in, but now be part of our family.
Spencer: That’s such an interesting way to look at it. I love it. You’re right, families do evolve, but the bond doesn’t break. When new people come in, it actually strengthens the bond.
Jamesley: I think it also gives people the appreciation for other aspects that different people have. The community that we’re in has changed and has evolved. I think that the company, as being a partner within the community also has to evolve and change with the demographics and the needs of the people. For me, a key piece as I started my journey here at Chabaso was seeing that and seeing how the organization, from the bottom up, supported that. At the same time, it was supporting our core group who have been with Chabaso for 20 plus years, because we do have a strong core group. It was just figuring out and working on how we put this all together. I think that was a strength of the organization and showed our journey as far as being a B Corp.
Spencer: I think that’s one of several things that really makes Chabaso so very special. I remember when I was there in 2019, learning that one of those core employees in manufacturing was someone who had a fine arts degree from Yale. You don’t really hear that very often — someone who studied fine arts getting into manufacturing and getting their hands in dough and running machines. Just that one little example, for me, really illustrates the workforce culture this company has … that you’re able to attract workers and keep them. That’s something that is plaguing our industry. Do you feel like these are values that make Chabaso a B Corp? Is it one of the keys to unlocking a little bit of that crisis?
Jamesley: Yes. We are a family-owned business, but we are a family. Being a family and being a B Corp, to me, goes hand-in-hand because that means what you’re trying to do for your people and your community is your core belief. That’s what Chabaso is about. I think following the path of B Corp gives us a roadmap of how we stay true to that and how we get even better than we are for the 20 years that we’ve been doing this business.
Spencer: From an operational standpoint, how has becoming a Certified B Corp made Chabaso a better manufacturer?
Jamesley: It makes us better because people understand what the company is about and what we’re trying to accomplish. It’s not just about profit. Any for-profit organization is trying to make money. I think many manufacturers are geared towards that because of who’s invested in them and who are the owners of it. When you’re in the B Corp world and you have those beliefs, it’s not just about profit. It’s about what are you doing for your people and community, as well as how you’re impacting the environment. I think that’s the key that some manufacturers who have the criteria of profit as being the No. 1 goal. For us, profit will come as long as we are doing the proper things with people, planet and purpose.
Spencer: I love that. How can other commercial bakeries get over that hump? It is hard for a food manufacturer or a commercial bakery — it’s hard for any company — to get B Corp certification, but it’s especially challenging for a commercial bakery. What’s your advice for getting over that hump that might be holding a bakery back from exploring this? Especially smaller operations, like midsize companies like yourselves, that don’t have a ton of resources.
Jamesley: Once an organization does the research on what is B Corp, what’s driving it and how they can evolve from their current path, I think it really makes a ton of sense. Then all of a sudden, you start looking at, “What are your core values? What goals are you trying to achieve?” I think that if you take the force for good of a B Corp, you can then start building those. It really helps with the operational performance that any manufacturer needs to achieve. I mean, we’ve gone through this past year, which had its ups and downs and challenges. But we were able to increase our operational efficiencies by over 15%.
Spencer: Wow.
Jamesley: Manufacturing for an established organization is fantastic. My belief is, it’s all done through teamwork. The teamwork really centers around what the company is all about. Being that we are following the beliefs of a B Corp, we are certifying what we’re doing. I think it’s helped drive the operational performance. For companies who are looking to do this, it gives a focus for the organization about what you’re all about and how you’re going to drive results.
Spencer: I love that. That’s such great advice. It’s a great way to close this episode. The only thing I can follow that up with is that it’s really just the beginning, right?
Jamesley: Yeah. It’s a journey. We’re in the early stages of the journey. As we go down this path, new things will come about and we’ll then have to figure out how to incorporate that into our plans with the lens of being a B Corp. I think that’s our guiding light as we go forward and look to be more and more successful.
Spencer: Next week, you and I are going to continue this conversation, but we’re also going to have Charlie Negaro, Chabaso’s president, join us, and we are going to talk about what it takes to get recertified every three years because anybody who’s been to IBIE knows that three years goes by really fast. We’re going to look at your plans for improvement with a three-year horizon next week with Charlie. I’m looking forward to that. But for now, Rich, thank you so much for sharing your perspective with me.
Jamesley: Thanks, Joanie. It’s been a pleasure.
