Welcome to the fifth season of the Troubleshooting Innovation podcast. Joanie Spencer, editor-in-chief for Commercial Baking, talks with Rebecca Abel, owner of D’Vine Cookies in Taylor, MI. They’re looking at cookie production through the lens of an entrepreneur, from starting a bakery to moving into the first big facility to strategic growth into the future. Sponsored by the National Honey Board.

This episode explores Abel’s experience of what it’s like to be the new kid on the industrial park block. She talks about her company’s strategies for capital investments, the support she’s received from having already well-established bakeries as her new neighbors, and beyond.

Learn more about this season here, and listen to Troubleshooting Innovation on Apple, Spotify, Google and Stitcher.

Joanie Spencer: Hi, Rebecca, thanks so much for joining me this week.

Rebecca Abel: Hi, Joanie. Thanks for having me.

Spencer: So this one is going to be kind of fun, because I met you right before a big move, so I’ve gotten to share in this excitement with you. But in the first episode, we talked about your decision to become a cookie manufacturer rather than a craft baker, despite the fact that this is a very high-end product that you’re making. I want to dive into that a little bit more. Looking back, how do you feel about that decision to become a manufacturer instead of a craft baker?

Abel: I think it was the right decision for me and what I was looking to create, and looking to have a craft cookie product. But I’m looking to build something really much bigger than me and to create a national brand here. It’s something that I could see pretty clearly two or three years into it: that manufacturing was going to be the route for me to attain this large goal.

Spencer: So a couple of weeks ago, we talked about the role that co-manufacturing plays in the business, and that right now, you’re really focusing on building that brand and having a larger presence nationally. What do you think about where you are with your co-manufacturing business? Are you going to stay that course? Are there going to be two parallel things? And how is that going to impact your growth and where you’re going in manufacturing?

Abel: Sure. Well, these contract manufacturing jobs that I took on initially to really start growing in the manufacturing space are something that I’ll maintain, and those are in themselves growing, and those companies are scaling as well. So I plan on continuing with those, but that’s not an area that I’m looking to grow my business. I’m not looking to bring in more clients in that space. Instead, all my growth is focused on my own brand at this point. But the two can be parallel. D’Vine will continue to grow and be a larger percentage of our business over the next few years.

Spencer: Okay, you know, I talked to a baker once who runs a very large company, and she mentioned something about how she loves and respects some of the aspects of the company that got them to where they are. But she has to know when to recognize that those aren’t the things that are going to take the company into the future. And I feel like there’s a little bit of parallel there.

Abel: Totally. Yeah, I think that’s very important for us. These contracts have helped us get to where we are, so we want to continue working with them. We wouldn’t be where we are without the contract manufacturing jobs that we took on initially.

Spencer: Right. So the next thing I want to talk about is how you took a big step recently — and I mentioned it when we opened this episode, that’s when I first met you — you were getting ready to move into a much larger facility. And last week, we closed the episode with you mentioning that you’ve been in five locations in five years. Is that right?

Abel: Yes, five locations in five years. It’s been very challenging to continuously outgrow our space, but without the right space, you can’t grow. So it’s been something that has been necessary to continue our journey.

Spencer: And that really says a lot about your growth trajectory and where you’re going. How do you know when it’s time to expand? And how did you know it was time to make this move? Because this one was pretty big one.

Abel: Well, we were really just maxed out in storage and room for new equipment. It was pretty clear after six months in our last facility that if we were to get any new contracts that we were going to outgrow it. So as soon as we got another potential large contract, we started looking because I wasn’t going to make another big move unless I had something lined up that was going to pay the bill for it down the line.

This most recent space we moved into is really much larger than we need right now. But it’s going to be big enough for when this new client comes onboard sometime next year. And ultimately, you know, we’ll probably outgrow this space in two years. The challenging thing is you can only go so big and afford to have so much space and room for growth without signing up for more than you can afford at the time.

Spencer: Right? It’s a really specific sweet spot, wouldn’t you say?

Abel: It absolutely is. And it’s a tough balance because the idea of having to move again is really daunting. These moves are really painful and expensive. And just even from permits and buildouts, this last go round was pretty excruciating and stressful. So it’s not something I enjoy doing, you know, these moves are not something that I initially saw as part of my journey, but they’ve been necessary. I just try not to think too much about them. And I’m embracing that this is going to be part of the process.

Spencer: So in each move, what lessons did you learn? Because you started with a decision to step into manufacturing, and now you’re stepping into a new facility that you’re hoping will sustain your growth for two years. A lot happened between those two steps.

Abel: Well, I learned that you have to give yourself a cushion for a lot of unfortunate things to happen in the process. So like with any construction project, it doesn’t go smoothly. You know, you spend all this money to dig out a new drain system, and you get into the guts of something, and then the builder couldn’t see that from the outset until they’ve dug down into the floor in a particular area and realize, okay, this isn’t going to work how we thought it was going to work.

So I’ve had to give myself this big cushion for problems that would come up along the way, so it wouldn’t stress me out so much to derail our moving forward. And that I think is the biggest thing about moving and buildouts and whatnot: just really knowing that it’s not going to be smooth. And you might have to switch contractors midway or, you know, fail inspections. And yeah, it’s been challenging. This last move was even exceeded any cushion that I built in for challenge.

Spencer: Wow. I mean, expect the unexpected is real. I mean, if COVID taught us anything, expect the unexpected. But that’s also a mantra, I think, for buildouts or moving into new facilities or even expansion in your operation. You’re right, it never goes on the timeline that you expect.

So the next thing I want to talk about is the equipment in the facilities that you’ve been in. We talked about this a little bit in the beginning in the first episode, but what did equipment choices look like when you first started making cookies? What were the priorities then, and what are the priorities now as you’ve moved into this full-scale manufacturing facility?

Abel: In my first facility, we had enough space for one line, and we didn’t spend a whole lot of time planning out flow; trying to make sure that we wouldn’t have unnecessary travel in the whole flow of the process. Whereas now, especially in this most recent move, we worked extensively to make sure that the space was appropriate, that we had efficient use of space, that things could flow correctly in the right direction, that there was room for the lines that we have right now and room for the next couple pieces of equipment we were going to buy.

I used a lot of advice from consultants to make sure that, first and foremost, I was getting into the right space. And then a lot of planning went into where we were putting out different electrical, different plumbing and the types of drains. So there was a lot of planning involved.

Spencer: How much work did you have to do on this facility to have it ready to install your operation?

Abel: It took us about three months to do plumbing infrastructure and to put on some additional gas lines for ovens and makeup air. The space was nice because it was a big rectangle. And that’s kind of an ideal situation where there’s not turns; it was just the right structure. So that saved us a lot in that we didn’t have to do much buildout in terms of the structure of the space, but we did need to put in a lot of plumbing and electrical infrastructure.

Spencer: What was the space previously used for?

Abel: It was used for food manufacturing. It was actually salsa. So it was a totally different type of food, it wasn’t something that was going through ovens. So that was nice, because there were already the food-safe walls and smooth, cleanable surfaces. That was really something that helped us to not have to spend a small fortune to put up, you know, FRP walls in a very large space. That made it appealing.

Spencer: Right. So we’re hoping that you’re going to be in this space for a couple of years, and there is room to grow and install at least another line. I remember one of the early conversations that I had with you as we were getting to know each other. I was sort of asking — because it’s what I do — like, “Do you know this equipment? You know, do you use this? Are you talking to this company?” And you had said something about, “Oh, I like that company, like it’s in my business plan to be big enough to invest in that type of equipment one day.” So when you look at the business plan, what are your thoughts on your capital investment priorities and strategies as you start on this journey in this facility?

Abel: Yeah, we definitely have some larger-scale equipment that we’re eyeballing for the future. And this particular room that we’re in will house the next step of automation that we want. But there’s some things that we can envision, you know, two to three years down from where we’re at right now. And that’s what’s going to cause us to elbow the space, again, is when we get into the big tunnel ovens and things that are really going to make us efficient.

That’s where our next move is going to come in. We don’t have that type of space here to be getting into the tunnel oven that will really make us productive and efficient down the line. There’s a few other types of equipment, whether it’s cooling tunnels or different things that we’ve seen, that would really help our process. But that’s going to be move No. 6!

Spencer: So speaking of operational efficiencies, you have that engineer’s mindset and it probably comes from having a finance background. You think about things sort of mathematically. It really fits in your DNA that you think like an engineer. So you employ some important GMP; we’ve talked in the past about Kaizen principles. So how have the GMPs that you use helped you get to where you are, especially as a relatively new manufacturer? How are you bringing those principles into your operation and having good manufacturing practices?

Abel: We just focus on creating systems for everything and then tweaking these systems to make them even better. So you know, with new employees that come in, there’s checklists for everything. And we just try to manage to these checklists, which are all GMP-based, because there’s a lot of moving pieces here. Everyone has to be following their checklist for the total process to come together at the end and be the product that we want and be processed in the GMP way that we need it to be. It’s a series of individual moving pieces that are really systematic, which then all have to come together.

It’s not been easy. I mean, that’s where you have to take this engineering approach on it, and make sure that it’s all systematized. But it’s really conducting an orchestra at times, and I have some great people on my team helping with that. But it’s still not an easy feat.

Spencer: Yeah. Just thinking about how our conversations have unfolded over these past few weeks, I can see this theme in how you started the business with this thoughtful approach and how you were very systematic about it in the beginning, in figuring out how to make cookies at all. Then figuring out how you wanted to get them out there to the public and the decision-making process. Systematic is the best word I can think of. And that makes sense. You seem like a person who lives and dies by her spreadsheets.

Abel: That’s funny you say that. Yeah, I do. I love a good spreadsheet. They’re necessary, though, because there’s no way to coordinate all of this without really having it all on a spreadsheet and tracking each part of it. Every day, I’m like, “Okay, I really need a spreadsheet for this.” So yeah, I sit and watch TV and come up with and work on my spreadsheets at night.

Spencer: I love it. I love it. So, with those GMPs, what kind of research do you conduct to know what systems are right for your operation? And what principles are the best ones to apply for what you’re trying to accomplish? Because there are just a ton of lean manufacturing principles out there.

Abel: Well, consultants have played an important part in that because I don’t want to recreate the wheel, right? It’s something that’s relatively complicated. So in the very beginning, I tried to figure out some of these things for myself, but then figured, okay, let me take an existing system and spend some money in consulting to find out how to really do this. And that’s when I quickly transitioned from measuring cups to scales and bigger mixers, and so on.

There’s been some people in the industry that have spent really generous amounts of time with me, just telling me how they do things. And they’re not necessarily in cookies, but I’ve found some mentors that have given me great advice. And then some amazing consultants and food scientists that have guided me with foundations in what systems to even be looking at. I don’t need to duplicate everything and make it my own, because there’s certain things that are industry standards that we’ve been able to use.

Spencer: I do feel that it could be very easy to over-engineer the process and get to a point where it’s counterproductive.

Abel: Absolutely. And I can sometimes start to overcomplicate things. I spend a lot of time taking my initial system and constantly refining things, because it’s easy to make things more complicated than they need to be. So that’s where this continuous improvement comes in. I’m constantly trying to simplify and simplify. That’s my mantra: keep it simple.

Spencer: Yeah, the process has to be simplified in order for a complex operation to be efficient. So we’ve already talked about leaning on other resources and doing research, but one thing that’s interesting about where you are in the new facility, is that you’re right down the street from another great bakery that I know pretty well. You’re neighbors with my friends at the Good Bread Company, which was formerly Michigan Bread. I love those guys. And I was so excited to make that introduction for you. How did having another bakery in the neighborhood help you get started in this facility, as your fifth operation?

Abel: They have been very helpful, and thank you so much for making that introduction. Even going to other manufacturing plants in the bakery industry is so helpful, to just see where we’re going to be a few years down the line. But these are the kinds of guys that have given me advice and have told me okay, here’s how to do this. Instead of me recreating a certain wheel, they’ve shown me things like: this is what took them a long time to dial in, these are the certain systems that are working for them, here are the ones that don’t need changing. So it’s been really helpful more than anything visually, to see where we want to go, but to have also some mentors that can commiserate and who remember being at the step where I’m at now. They can tell me some of the challenges they had here.

I’ve spoken to Mike and Spiro [from the Good Bread Co.] about staffing and how to find the right people as you grow. You know, that challenge of how you can’t necessarily afford the expert to come in at their expert’s salary. Some of these people you need to bring in and learn with them and grow with them. I’ve talked to them extensively about that issue, and how they dealt with that.

Spencer: I don’t think you could have moved into a better neighborhood. Mike and Spiro didn’t start out as bakers; they were in the distribution game. They’re also self-taught. So I was very excited to introduce you to someone who had been on a similar journey, who had the gift of hindsight to share with you so that you could sort of sharpen your lens closer to 20/20, but in real time.

Abel: Yeah, they have a very impressive operation. And they have been so helpful.

Spencer: So you’ve got your staff that you have right now, currently, and everybody’s sort of learning together as you go. And then you’ve also had the ability to lean on expertise from industry veterans and consultants and your neighbors at the Good Bread Co. From your perspective, how do you balance the advice from experts with your own ideas, as an entrepreneur, and a propensity to maybe do things a little bit differently or look at things in new ways? How do you create that balance in your operation?

Abel: It’s a good question. I’m leaning more and more toward these experts and their advice, because this is all unchartered territory for me. My mistakes are becoming more and more expensive at this point. I might have a certain way of doing things in my mind, but I’m really filtering it through the advice of experts, because I can’t afford big, expensive mistakes anymore, whereas in the beginning, I could dabble a little bit more when I was on a smaller scale and figure things out. But especially with equipment, you make a couple big equipment mistakes, and you’re sunk. So this is where I really value the advice of people that have done this before and getting what they suggest.

Even in addition to Mike and Spiro: Dave Van Laar and some other great consultants that I’ve had, some people that have really helped me at tradeshows. I’ve even had a few cookie companies take me under their wing, and these are much larger cookie companies with people who have been really generous with advice and guidance on the equipment side. They share their experience with what they’re using at this much larger size and guidance as to, you know, what to do and what not to do. I think that it’s been invaluable. I prioritize that over my own ideas at this point, because I’m really learning as I go with this growth stage.

Spencer: Yeah, yeah. So were you surprised at how open other baking companies are to take you under their wing and help guide you in, “Here the things that worked for us, here’s equipment that works for us”? Because it’s something that is signature to the baking industry, that someone from the outside might not expect. Was that a surprise to you?

Abel: It really was a pleasant surprise of how generous people were with their time and advice. And it’s been so, so helpful. Without it, I would’ve made several other mistakes along the way. But you know, I always myself try to be as generous with mentorship and advice. I’m trying to always pay it forward with a lot of smaller bakers or startups will come to me and ask for advice or guidance. And I tried to provide it just as much as I’m getting it from these other, much larger companies, who have been so helpful and generous to me.

Spencer: There is so much camaraderie in the commercial baking community. I’ve talked to bakers who have toured other bakery operations in order to troubleshoot problems that they’re having, or get endorsements or feedback on potential equipment or lines that they’re looking to invest in. I’m so happy to hear that you’re experiencing that as well, because that’s one of the things that I love the most about this industry.

Abel: Yeah, it’s very comforting to have people who actually care to see other companies be successful. There’s enough room for all of us to be successful. And, you know, I’m glad that they see that, and I see that, and we all have to help each other.

Spencer: I mean, it really is the whole rising tide philosophy: a rising tide truly does float all boats.

Abel: Absolutely.

Spencer: Rebecca, that is all I have for our conversation about manufacturing. I love hearing about where you are with your operation right now, and I know that there’s more to come with what you’re doing there in Taylor, MI.

In a couple of weeks, we’re going to circle back and talk about that; I’m excited to get your take on having visited IBIE and seeing 1 million square feet of innovation. But before we get to that, next week, we’re going to talk about the thing that is on everyone’s mind: people development. So that’s what we’re going to dive into next, is how you’re developing your staff and what growth looks like from that perspective..

Abel: Sounds great. That’s definitely an important part of our company.

Spencer: All right, Rebecca. It was great talking to you and I will talk to you next week.

Abel: Sounds great. Thanks, Joanie!