Welcome to the fifth season of the Troubleshooting Innovation podcast. Joanie Spencer, editor-in-chief for Commercial Baking, talks with Rebecca Abel, owner of D’Vine Cookies in Taylor, MI. They’re looking at cookie production through the lens of an entrepreneur, from starting a bakery to moving into the first big facility to strategic growth into the future. Sponsored by the National Honey Board.

This episode unpacks key learnings for product development and R&D.

Learn more about this season here, and listen to Troubleshooting Innovation on Apple, Spotify, Google and Stitcher.

Joanie Spencer: Hi, Rebecca. Thanks for joining me again this week.

Rebecca Abel: Hi, Joanie. Great to be here.

Spencer: Last week, we had a very fascinating conversation about your journey in starting D’Vine Cookies, and really learning the art of cookie making and cookie production for manufacturing. This week, I want to talk about your philosophies on how you chose the type of cookie you wanted to make. And what goes into your product development behind that. Our first hire here at Avant Food Media, I remember having the conversation about if she is a crispy cookie kind of girl or a soft bake cookie kind of girl. Your cookie preference almost defines your personality. How did you choose what type of cookie you wanted the designed to be?

Abel: Well, it’s funny you ask that because I did find that there are definitely two sides of this cookie game with the crispies or the chewy and soft. I went with my preference, my cookie is a little bit crispy on the outside, and then soft on the inside. I wanted the thick, more underbaked type of cookie that I enjoy eating, because I figured if I’m taste testing all these cookies, I have got to go with what I like. And I am very much on that side of the fence, the soft and gooey cookie.

Spencer: I think I’m a soft baked cookie myself. There’s something comforting about it.

Abel: I figured maybe I can combine the two. If I can have a little bit of crisp and a little bit of soft, then I’m really winning.

Spencer: I like that a lot. That’s a great concept. After several years, how has the product evolved, since you first started testing all of those cookie recipes?

Abel: Well, it’s evolved a lot with going into automation, because equipment changes your product. We started with a much thicker cookie, because I wanted a cookie that was really stocky, and it worked well, when we were making everything by hand and using the six pan oven. Then as we began getting into larger automation, the cookies didn’t come out the same. So things have evolved, and they’re still soft on the inside and crunchy on the outside, but they’re not quite as stocky. That has been something that I’ve had to adapt to and adapt my packaging too. It’s hard to make the same cookie when you’re making it by hand and using different automation equipment and making things on a much larger scale. But to me, it was all about consistency through the flavor. If every flavor I made was the same shape and size, then I was okay. The look of the cookies evolved substantially from, it being about an inch and a half high when I initially started to about three quarters of an inch high at this point.

Spencer: Obviously, you have to have that consistency when you’re manufacturing and the cookies have to fit into a package in exactly the same way. When you’re looking at a consumer experience or a consumer expectation that’s very different from a cookie you buy from a storefront. What was your mindset and reconciling adjusting that formula to create that consistency with your product?

Abel: Again, going for consistency between all the different flavors. It took a lot of R&D, once I was going into the scaling mode, to tweak the recipes to get everything looking consistent now that we were making it in a different way. My mindset was okay, I’m just going to keep tweaking things until they’re perfect. There was a lot of time and a lot of waste that we had to incur to get things to be right. And a lot of batches that we had to donate or give away that didn’t look consistent once we were making them with equipment and it was frustrating. I had no idea that it was going to be as complicated as it was but I hired food scientists and consultants and again, had to go into this big research mode. In order to get things so that they would all come out looking and tasting the same, but it was about this look of the same diameter and the same height and so on.

Spencer: Right. How many skews do you have today? I know you talked about when you had your vision for the company wanted to have 40 different kinds of flavors. Where are you now?

Abel: We’re about 32 skews of products. There is still a lot of depth and that’s what I focus on was depth in my product line. I make keto, vegan, gluten free, classic, and stuffed cookies. To me indulgence was about choice, and having a lot of different flavors, options and cookies that were still decadent, that somebody who was vegan and gluten free could have. We still do have a lot of skews, which is complicated, because to manufacture a lot of different flavors with different ingredients is not an easy feat. But that’s part of what our company is, is about depth of flavors.

Spencer: Yeah. On that note, with that depth of flavors. Let’s talk about what some of your current product development strategies are. Is flavor development really the primary focus and strategically looking down the road? Is that where you’re going to maintain your focus? Or do you have any thoughts or plans for new product types that you’re going to tinker with?

Abel: Right now, it’s on flavors. I look at every ingredient I can get my hands on. I go to various trade shows, and really focus on the ingredients side, in my role. I do all the R&D and all the flavor creation. I want to find amazing compound companies or extracts or different inclusions. And then, look at flavor trends in the market. That’s my focus on what’s going to make a great cookie is a complex flavor profile and textures. Right now I’m not looking at increasing and getting into new products, I want to stay in cookies. Down the line it’s something that once we’ve really perfected and have our cookie systems ago and are in a much bigger space, then maybe I’d consider getting into some other categories of desserts. But I figure keep it simple. Let me stick with cookies and make the very best cookies that we can make and innovate some new flavors, and then maybe we’ll add on to it. But cookies is enough.

Spencer: I mean, there’s a lot you can do with cookies. I’m actually sitting here thinking about when it comes to flavor development, is it better to enhance a current flavor and make it better and increase the quality of a flavor that you have? Or is it better to figure out what the next big flavor is going to be?

Abel: I do a little bit of both. But I tried to focus on small improvements of our core products. I’ll look at how can we put a little more filling in this cookie? Or how can we make it have a little more complex of a flavor profile. But it’s not simple because we have to purchase a lot of packaging for something and keep all of our product on label. You can’t necessarily change the ingredients. But maybe you change slight quantities and things. It’s not necessarily something easy to do, but it is my focus to have small improvements. Constant small improvements is my focus on the cookies and kind of in life. But it is fun. It’s fun to come up with new product ideas. I like to go into that creative side and brainstorm things. The way I do it is I take classic flavors of things. For instance, turtle cheesecake or something like that, I might go out to a restaurant and have a turtle cheesecake. And I’m constantly thinking, “I’m gonna make a turtle cheesecake cookie that’s really fun and exciting.” I do do that, I try to come up with a couple new flavors a year. But really remind myself how can I make what we have even better?

Spencer: You’re a young brand and a relatively small company? Do you think that helps you in your product development? Or does that hinder you? Because one of the benefits of being small is that you are nimble, and you can fire off those new ideas and try new things really quickly. But does it make it hard though, being young and small?

Abel: No, I think it makes it easier because we don’t have a lot of red tape to make changes in our products. I’ve worked with different consultants that are amazed at how quickly we can pivot something. Because they’re used to working with the bigger companies that it might take six months to roll out something or to roll out any kind of small change. And for me, it’s a decision that I’m making relatively independently about, since I do all the R&D and product development if I’ve decided, we’re going to make a change in this cookie. It’s me figuring out the change, and then getting with my graphic designer then printing new film and then changes are done. And then it is just letting the distributors know. But it’s still pretty easy. Now I view it getting harder as we get bigger and bringing it to more higher level management employees, it’s not going to be quite so easy. That’s why I’m really trying to get things dialed in still now, before we go on our next massive growth spurt.

Spencer: Rebecca, I was just going to say enjoy it while you can.

Abel: Yeah. There is something nice about being limber and small.

Spencer: Yes, for sure. That is the joy of being a small operation. That you can just fire off those ideas and just run on the adrenaline of ideation.

Abel: Definitely.

Spencer: Let’s take that a step further and look at how R&D and product development fit into your business plan. What is the strategy for growth in terms of your product development.

Abel: I am looking to keep things, simple on product development. I’m looking to stay within cookies and innovate a couple new flavors a year. I want to have our core lineup of flavors, which we have. I always start initially overcomplicating things and think, “Let’s roll out a new flavor every month.” But as you’re doing large scale production, it’s not so easy. You’ve a certain amount of film that you have to buy. At this point, we have a core lineup of flavors. Then we have two quarterly offerings. Right now I’m finalizing for 2023, what those quarterly offerings are going to be, that’s my realm, as I’m the R&D and I’m the person sourcing the ingredients and looking at new vendors for cool and unique inclusions or toppings, or whatever we’re gonna put into the cookie. Our strategy is to innovate, but to keep things simple, so that it’s actually sustainable. We can keep our focus narrow so that we can come up with something really good.

Spencer: Do you get requests from customers, on the branded side — of course, not for the contract manufacturing. But do you get requests from your customers for different types of flavors or things that their consumers are looking for?

Abel: We do. People love to make requests on flavors, and I love getting them. But I also have to know when to say no. Because they don’t realize when they request this particular flavor, how much work really goes into it. People love to share their ideas for different combinations. It’s fun to talk about, but I can’t do everything that people want. You know, I’ve resolved that we’re not going to please everybody here. But some people have some great ideas that I will pursue.

Spencer: Are you going to pursue the turtle cheesecake cookie, I have to know that it’s nine o’clock in the morning where I am right now, as we’re recording this and all I can think about is turtle cheesecake cookie.

Abel: I love turtle cheesecake. And I do think we’re going to pursue it but it didn’t make our lineup for next year. I couldn’t fit it in. I was trying to pick flavors that would resonate with the quarter, I’ve got my winter, spring, summer and fall. I think that that would be a good fall cookie. But I had two that I just liked better than that flavor for the fall. I’m sticking with my pumpkin cheesecake and my caramel apple pie for the fall next year.

Spencer: Oh my gosh. I’m sitting here thinking maybe next Thanksgiving, I’ll be able to enjoy a turtle cheesecake D’Vine cookie.

Abel: I’m going to put it on a document for 2024. How about that?

Spencer: Okay, fair enough. Fair enough. Keep me posted.

Abel: You’ll be a tester in 2023. When I’m working hard on it.

Spencer: I’m totally in. Okay, the next thing that I want to talk about with product development is quality. And the role that quality plays in your R&D. What’s the ratio between QC and R&D in your product development?

Abel: That’s a great question, because we’ve recently hired somebody in QC to really focus on that. Because the R&D lab is completely different than the production space, especially because we’re making things in small batches. But they’ve really got to equal out because, we’ve got to dial in the R&D and then we have to translate it into the production floor. And make sure that this cookie is coming out the right size and the right shape and it really can be difficult to translate to the equipment from what I’m making in my lab. It’s definitely a delicate balance there, and can be frustrating. And it can be expensive to dial it in on the QA side, and to not be able to use a lot of cookies in the beginning once we’re launching a new flavor. But we have a commitment to things really looking consistent. And so we donate a lot of product because it doesn’t meet our QC or QA standard. It’s frustrating and expensive, but it’s a commitment that we make to make sure our cookies are consistent.

Spencer: How do you think having someone dedicated to QC on your staff is going to help streamline that and figure things out in the development stage before the testing stage? Is that something that this person can sort of bring to the team so that you’re not doing as much trial and error?

Abel: Yes, then she’s new in the role. But that is my goal, that she can assist to help transition from the lab to the production floor in a little bit more meaningful way. I don’t want it to be as frustrating as it is right now, to make that transition and have to go through four or five big batches to really dial things in.

Spencer: Right. So what is her background? And again, we’ll get into this in a couple of weeks when we talk about like people development versus product development. But is that her background? Or is this something that she’s hired to focus on this, and she’s going to be learning it as she goes?

Abel: She is somebody that’s learning it as she goes. She’s a baker, but she hasn’t worked in the production world. It’s a little bit different when you’re in a retail bakery than when you are in a manufacturing facility. But with being small, a lot of my employees I’ve had to hire and train and learn with them. Versus finding industry veterans, just because we are still a startup, it’d be great to hire somebody with 10 years of experience. But it’s not necessarily affordable to do. So consulting with experts, I have a call next week with a food scientist to narrow down some issues that we’re having. Her and I will do that call together so that we can put those learnings into place. So that next time, we don’t have to make the five batches to dial things in on the equipment. The goal is to have her really able to help me transition these products a little bit better, so that the QC is not as wasteful for the first batches of something new.

Spencer: That’s probably what the downside to being able to be that nimble and try new things. It comes with a bit of waste when you have to do that trial and error.

Abel: Definitely. That’s why when people have all these requests, I have to filter it through well, that sounds like an amazing cookie. But we can only pick two. Because if we’re trying to make seven new cookies, we’re going to have a lot of downtime, and a lot of waste.

Spencer: Do you rely on your ingredient suppliers at all in that R&D process? And trying to identify bringing quality into it?

Abel: Definitely. I’ve consulted with some really great chefs that are resources of some of my suppliers. They’ve been really helpful and have great ideas. I’ll take any advice that I can get, but especially if it’s coming from a really well-known pastry chef. One of my suppliers in specific has access to some really great people in the baking world that I’ve been able to pick their brains and get advice on how to get a crumble and a little bit more textured and so on.

Spencer: That’s awesome. Okay, here’s a question. You probably don’t remember that we talked about this. But one of the first conversations I had with you that I remember thinking, “Wow, this lady is something special.” You mentioned that you take an engineering approach to your product development. Do you remember telling me that?

Abel: Yeah, I do.

Spencer: How does that work? And what are the benefits to thinking like an engineer when you’re developing a cookie?

Abel: Well, I need to have something that I can systematize. To me, engineering is about like systems. I have to be very selective on when I’m R&D in a cookie of what can be systematized? For instance, let’s say, I had an idea to put a Reese’s Peanut Butter Cup in the middle of a cookie. That can’t be systematized with the type of automation we have. I have to filter everything through. Will this work and automation? Yes, it can be a great idea and I love this flavor. But is it something that can be on a shelf? Is it something that can work on my machines? I start by filtering everything through that and have to design my products, so that they work for mass manufacturing. I’m looking to make hundreds of thousands of each flavor. And we have to make it so that it will work with the tools that we have.

Spencer: If my turtle cheesecake cookie isn’t coming until Thanksgiving of 2024, do you look at like an 18-month lead time on your product development?

Abel: No, I look at usually a six-month lead time. But I like to come up with the ideas, I have a schedule. For next year, I’m working on my cookies that will launch in the wintertime and finalizing ingredients and a process and doing some test bakes on what those are. Yes, the idea is 18-months out of what’s coming in 2024. But the R&D and the trials are about a six-month time and then I have to dial in where we’re going to source these ingredients from and get my film ready and all that. I’m not patient enough to wait 18-months from concept to implementation.

Spencer: Okay. When you talk about sourcing the ingredients, what comes first the capabilities of your current ingredient supplier, or the idea or concept for the new product? Do you come up with the product, then figure out what ingredient supplier is going to source it? Or do you look at what your current resources are? And how can we R&D within that space, especially now that supply chain is such an issue?

Abel: I tend to come up with the flavor first, and then figure out where I’m going to source the ingredients from. Sometimes I’ll be at a show and I’ll see an ingredient. And I’ll design something around it. Because again, I’m looking for innovation and I’m looking for cool products. Sometimes seeing something might trigger an idea for a product. My current suppliers have some great resources, but I’m looking for unique mixes or unique ingredients out there. It’s a little bit of both. I have great suppliers that I can find most of what I need from and I utilize them as much as possible. But it is really fun finding a total new supplier and something that they’re making that drives a flavor in itself.

Spencer: Yeah. With this whole discussion of product development, how has your approach to product development R&D impacted the way you think about manufacturing, your approach to manufacturing? Because if we look back at last week, we talked about your conscious decision to manufacture to go scale. And then next week, we’re going to really get into the equipment side and the manufacturing side. But how has your approach to R&D impacted your approach to manufacturing? We talked about a little bit in the beginning, as far as you have to think about how a new product is going to be machined on the line. But how do you think about what machines you need based on what types of products you want to make?

Abel: I look at the machines that we have and what their capabilities are. We have to look at what the consistency of doughs or fillings that these machines can handle. I have to take my flavor and make sure that it’s going to be able to be processed through that equipment. It’s a balance between the two at all times. I can’t take something like a Reese’s Peanut Butter Cup and put it through my machine, it won’t work like that. You have to balance the R&D between what’s going to work in the equipment and what’s going to be the flavor that you want. The two have to be hand in hand at all times with all of my R&D.

Spencer: So have you ever had a conversation that sounded something like, “I would love to make X type of cookie or X variety or flavor of this cookie. But I’m not going to be investing in that type of equipment in order to make that happen anytime soon?”

Abel: Absolutely. Yeah, I do have to say no. And let them know why it’s something that I cannot make. Because people have all sorts of requests for something that they might want. But if I don’t have a plan to buy the type of equipment that can make that I’ll tell them right away “You know, that sounds amazing. But we don’t have the right equipment to do that. And that’s not something that we’re looking to purchase in the near future.” I tried to keep it real, honest and simple that here’s our capabilities. Here are things we can do and here are things that we can’t do.

Spencer: But on the flip side, we kind of talked about how R&D and product development fit into your business plan. Do you have your eye on any sorts of equipment that will change your R&D and product development capabilities in the future?

Abel: Definitely down the line, there are a few machines that I’d really love that could change our flavors with some of our toppings. But they’re at least a year down the line. It’d be great to have a whole lineup of different things that we could be using to give ourselves variety. But we’re just we’re not there yet. We have a decent bit of automation, but there’s always a list of five new things that we’d love and that we’re going to look at as money allows.

Spencer: Right. Okay, Rebecca, those are all my questions for this week. Thanks for making me so hungry at nine o’clock in the morning.

Abel: It’s hard to work in the cookie world. Talking about desserts.

Spencer: I have a rule at my house that Christmas Day is the only day where it’s okay to eat cookies for breakfast. But I want to have a cookie for breakfast right now.

Abel: Oh, yeah. It’s tough working in a cookie factory. I’ll tell you that. There are a lot of cookie breakfasts in my world.

Spencer: I don’t know how you do it. Okay, next week, we are going to look at the machines and the manufacturing and talk about that journey, from a storefront into manufacturing and where you are now. Because you just recently made a big step into a new facility. You’re sort of the new kid on the industrial block. We’re going to talk about that next week. I’m very interested to hear your perspective in stepping into some new equipment and new facility and how that’s changing your business for you.

Abel: Well looking forward to talking all about that. It’s it has been a process. This is our fifth move in five years.

Spencer: Wow. Well, hopefully you’re in a home that you’ll be in for a while. And I cannot wait to hear about this journey next week. Thanks for joining me this morning and I will talk to you about more manufacturing next week.

Abel: Sounds great. Thanks so much, Joanie.