Welcome to the third season of the Troubleshooting Innovation podcast. Josh Allen, award-winning artisan baker and founder of Companion Baking in St. Louis, is redefining ways to think about artisan bread production. In this episode, he discusses the importance of relationships in a transactional environment, the benefits and challenges to creating products for someone else to tell their story, and more.

Listen to Troubleshooting Innovation on Apple, Spotify or Google. Hosted by Joanie Spencer, Commercial Baking editor-in-chief. Sponsored by AB Mauri North America.

Joanie Spencer: So I have gotten to know you over the past month or two, and I know that you have some really different approaches to how you go about baking. I’m really excited to dive deep into this episode with exploring breadmaking as storytelling. I’d like to start first with your background because you grew up sort of on the periphery of the industry in distribution. I think it’s great context to start with how you were taught the importance of things like relationships in a transactional type of environment.

Josh Allen: I grew up in the food business, but from the broadline distribution standpoint, so never from a manufacturing standpoint or a production standpoint, but my family had a large regional broadline distribution company that sold everything from frozen foods to seafood to produce to grocery to janitorial. Eventually, they sold that company. I believe they were 101 years old in 2002 when they sold the business to US foods, when US Foods was rolling up regional businesses across the country and kind of getting started here. So you know, they always competed against some national players and some other regional players. And my family was always about relationships, and that’s certainly what we talked about.

The example that I saw set all the time — and obviously things are, to a certain extent, based on price — but to a bigger extent, it was based on relationships. My dad’s feelings were always that taking care of the customer would pay dividends in the long term. He coached me in soccer and baseball and things when I was a kid, and I can’t remember a day that we didn’t make a delivery on the way to a game or the way home from a game. We would go and get something out of the freezer and take it to a customer, or something to make sure that his customers were always taken care of. And we kind of lived and breathed that all the way through and especially as a family business that was multi-generational and included a pretty diverse group of family members. It was just sort of our ethos. And I certainly took that to heart and have tried to maintain that relationship and kind of maintain that reputation, especially in St. Louis with our local business for the last 30, almost 30 years.

Spencer: So correct me if I’m wrong, but didn’t you sort of have a lifelong plan to step into the family business and go into distribution?

Allen: I don’t know that it was a lifelong plan more than just sort of what was expected. I went to school in the Bay Area and really got introduced to food in the Bay Area and started seeing what all these amazing bakeries were doing out there. Sort of by happenstance, I was racing my bike and racing triathlons and looking for jobs in the evening or overnight. That actually turned out to be restaurant work at first and then it turned out to be bakery work, and I just fell in love with it. And for those that have gone into the industry, you’ll know what I’m talking about in the sense that three days in, you either love it or you go screaming. I just happened to fall in love with the process of taking, you know, four or five simple ingredients and making something every day from scratch. And knock on wood. I still get to do that every day 32 years later, however long it’s been.

Spencer: So I want to talk a little bit about that “you either love it or you hate it and you know right away.” Can you describe that experience? Do you know where you were when you fell in love with baking?

Allen: It was probably… Well, I still have one in my office today. I have the original Easy Bake Oven. I do remember stealing my sister’s Easy Bake Oven and there was nothing more magical to me than making brownies with a light bulb. And I still sort of feel that way every time I open the oven. I’m still sort of enchanted by the idea of the transformation that takes place in baking and still load the oven thinking that I’m not sure what’s going to come out right or if it’s going to be correct. I think that kind of curiosity and just kind of excitement about the craft is something that you need to stick it out. Certainly it is a monotonous craft and a monotonous job, one that if we’re doing everything right, then nothing changes every day. And to some that would be incredibly boring. To me, it’s really exciting to try to figure out how to orchestrate 30,000 pounds a day through a system in which nothing ever goes wrong. And obviously things go wrong every day. But, you know, hoping for that one day where it all works perfectly, kind of keeps us coming back every day.

Spencer: This is something that I do find so interesting about you, because this is a craft that, like you said, it has to come out the same every single time if you’re doing it correctly. That said, though, you have some pretty unique approaches for how you do things. And I learned that when I came to St. Louis to visit the bakery. That’s really why I titled your story, “Bread Bakers, Storytellers.” I think it’s probably safe to say that all bakers are storytellers in some way, shape or form. But in a lot of ways, you’re so unconventional. I’m curious to know, what was your aha moment when you realized that you had this ability to create a narrative on a plate?

Allen: As you and I talked about when you were here, it’s for me, and for us, much more about somebody else’s story. So we really love the storytelling process. But we also recognize as a producer for customers, especially in foodservice and fine dining or even fast casual, everybody has a story they’re trying to tell with their food. As the world gets more competitive, and things are starting to change, they need those points of differentiation. And what we love more than anything is a customer who comes to us needing help to tell their story. If bread can play a role in that, whether it’s the first experience with a certain story they want to tell when they put table bread down in front of a table of four at the beginning of a meal, or if it’s a sandwich, or if it’s some kind of appetizer and the way bread plays a role in that — whatever that story is —we’re excited to help them tell it. We don’t have to take ownership in that story.

I think that’s the piece, you know, that goes back to the relationship thing that my family did. Certainly as a broadline distributor, they weren’t selling anything that was going to tell a story at all had to be transformed by those customers, but they needed those products. And we’re needed in the process to tell the story. And we have an opportunity to contribute. But again, we’re very much a supporting cast. I think the humbleness of that and the humility in that is what is most attractive to me. We’re driven by trying to figure out ways for our customers to be super successful. And if we can help them do that, then where are they going to go? Because we’re producing for them exactly what they asked for, and exactly what they were looking for. And it creates a sense of relationship and a sense of loyalty. That’s very difficult to compete with. And you can’t compete with that on price, if you’re giving the kind of attention that you have to give to help them tell that story.

I think our biggest skill is the ability to listen and the ability to not try to overwhelm the conversation and not try to push our narrative on their plate, but help them kind of articulate their own and figure out: How can we support that? What does that bread look like? What is the crust? What is the crumb? Sometimes it’s what is the distribution model? Maybe they have multiple locations and they’re in different parts of the country. And we have to help work through the challenges of whatever it takes to get there. We’ve got to help them try to figure out how to do that, and we really get a kick out of it. I think that’s become our point of difference. We’re looking to grow Companion, but we’re not growing the brand, we’re really growing those relationships.

Spencer: I think it’s kind of funny, your dad sort of trained you to be a baker without realizing that’s what he was doing. Because there is so much relationship that goes into the baking process, aside from putting the product together. I think you had a really firm foundation in thinking about things in terms of relationships.

Allen: Yeah, and I think more than anything, it’s helping folks solve problems. Maybe it’s a distribution problem, maybe it’s a pack problem. Our competition in many instances is so much bigger than us that they can’t necessarily react to a multi-unit operator with just 15 or 20 or 50 locations. And so their choices with the larger manufacturers are “here’s the stock list of products that are available, pick one of those,” and what we try to do — the niche we try to sit on — is you don’t have to pick one of those. Let’s talk about exactly what it is that you need. And maybe for some it’s a mixed pack of something, not that I’m advocating for that but we’ve done that in some instances, or whatever it comes out to be. If we listen to the problem, and then try to solve the problem, as opposed to like a lot of people just throwing our stuff on the table and trying to talk about features and benefits of our products — and that’s great — but in the end, the customer sitting there just thinking, “Okay, here’s what my problem is. And this is all that I want to solve. And you can go through your spiel if you want to. But in the end, this is the problem that I need to solve. And that’s why I am willing to give you a few minutes of my time.”

So we just go have conversations, and a lot of the times those conversations will lead to those opportunities, because we’re listening to what the challenges are. Maybe they need a clean ingredient declaration that they haven’t been able to find before. Again, maybe it’s a certain pack size, or maybe it’s something else that they’re really struggling with. If we can solve that problem, that’s a huge relief to them. Then later on, we can look to sell more things or expand that relationship. But first, you have to solve the problem. And only when you’re willing to listen, and only when you’re really interested in the relationship and not just the sale, do those opportunities truly present themselves.

Spencer: Definitely. And when you’re talking about telling someone else’s story and really hearing what their needs are, and the problem that they’re trying to solve — we talked about this a little bit when I visited you — it reminds me of a book I was reading. It was about an architecture firm, and the introduction to the book talked about the skill of an architect: They put all of their resources and creativity into creating something that’s for the use of someone else. So they build this, they put themselves into it, and then they pass it on for their client to use or their client’s customers to use. There is such a parallel there when talking about your craft. How do you put yourself into developing a product for someone else’s story to tell?

Allen: I think you have to enjoy the challenge of it. So you have to be intrigued by and interested in the process. Because sometimes it can take a long time. You know, some folks are very particular and have a very specific vision. Sometimes those visions are hard for them to articulate. So you’ll go through a number of iterations and every time you’ll think you’re there, then they may change something. At the end, they may say, “oh yeah, but also, this was the characteristic that we were looking for. And we haven’t achieved that.” And sometimes they don’t come out unless you’re willing to go through the process. So we have to let go of trying to get to the end too fast. We really want to take our time and helping them really define what that looks like.

The parallel that you bring up is exactly right. Everybody has a particular style, or they have a thought process or an experience, let’s say as an architect, but still you have to listen to what your customer’s needs are. And you have to understand how many people are going to be in the office, if you’re doing the commercial space, or how many customers are coming in or what the interaction needs to be. It may not exactly fit what you want it to do, the aesthetic may end up having to be different, there’s going to be compromises that have to be made. But if you can let go of your ego in that process, and really be interested in helping that customer tell their story, then I think it’s huge.

And we can help them in a lot of times because, especially with bread, the customers can’t necessarily articulate it all the way through. They don’t know exactly what they want until we go through a few things. And then they have to put it through their process. So you know, we’ve developed buns for customers and we think we’ve got it figured out, and then you know, we go in to do a test and we find out that they put the buns on the flat grill and then throw them into a Cambro for 20 minutes. And you know, the bun has to be able to hold differently than we expected. It’s just the way that it gets handled in the actual operation may require certain formulation changes or different kinds of crusts or different ingredients because they’re going to get abused a little bit, you know, where the rubber meets the road is how their cooks or chefs are going to handle it in the process.

It’s funny, we’ve developed ciabatta for a small restaurant group and they wanted a really traditional ciabatta. We made that. Then in practice, we had holes in there and the crumb structure was open, which they loved in the tasting. But then when they were turning it into bruschetta, the toppings would fall through and that wasn’t working for them. So they wanted us to go back and reformulate or change the process, as we spent more time in it and started to understand a little bit more and we ended up making a change to which oven system it baked in. That solved the issue that they needed, and now they’re thrilled because it’s exactly what they wanted. And again, going through that process with them has really deepened the relationship because they recognize that it was really about getting them to a product that they wanted. It wasn’t about us or what we wanted. It was about what they wanted and what they needed. The biggest benefit, which we talked about a minute ago, is purely just that relationship. It’s no different than with your spouse, with your kids or with anybody. If you listen to somebody, full-body listening and responding to what their needs are and putting folks’ needs in front of your own, it has a tremendous amount of value. And you have to be willing to do that and be able to present that in a very transparent way. It goes a long way.

Spencer: You mentioned ego. And I feel like there’s a line between a baker’s passion and a baker’s ego. Is that line hard to see sometimes?

Allen: Well, I think it depends on where you come from. Growing up in the food distribution business, being an American Studies major in college, doing some restaurant work, some bakery work, I came to the business in many respects equal parts entrepreneurial and equal parts passionate bread baker. I didn’t have a cottage bakery out of my garage making a certain bread, and then I opened a bakery and that was what I loved to do. Sure, I love making products, but at the same time, I’m equally as passionate about building the business and taking care of my people and being a part of the community.

I love the aspect of being a business owner as much as I love being a baker. And so I can separate the two things. It doesn’t have to be my product exactly that presents itself. I’m okay with that. That natural progression has led us and led me and our team to being super comfortable in making products for other people that they need. And they want without having to have a particular style across anything that we’re making. You and I walked the floor, Joanie, and we talked about the fact that there’s a lot of things here that we produce that you see that aren’t exactly artisanal. We make a lot of hoagies, sandwich buns that are very specific to the needs of the customers. They were every bit as challenging to make as a beautiful loaf of sourdough bread. But in the end, the look may not be that dark crusted, blistered, hearth oven-baked loaf of bread. But it doesn’t mean that we don’t believe we’re very talented and skilled and that it didn’t take a lot of energy to get there. It’s just different, and for us, that’s okay. We don’t need a catalog of products that has this aesthetic across the board. That’s the same, we really, really, really enjoy this idea of being a kind of contract or custom manufacturer for folks and helping them achieve that that story that we talked about right out of the gate.

Spencer: It has to be a little bit thrilling to be able to create a bread that, like you said, is it by the definition of artisan “beauty”? Maybe not. But there is someone who’s going to walk into a restaurant and be like, “Oh my god, this is the best sandwich I’ve ever eaten.” And that has to be just incredibly satisfying for you.

Allen: Yeah, and it’s incredible to have the chef reach out and say, “Look, we just won best sandwich or we’re getting all these accolades for our product. And thank you for just being that little bit of part of it. Like we couldn’t have done this without what you’ve done.” Nobody else would say that, which is fine, because in the end, it’s their food and their service and their aesthetic and what they’ve done in the story they’re telling in that restaurant that deserves 99% of the accolades. But there are some micro-vendors behind the scenes, whether it’s a farmer growing them beautiful produce, or us producing a bread specific to what they were looking for. That does play a role in that. I’m just as thrilled to see that happen for them as if it were to happen for us.

Spencer: I want to shift gears just a little bit, because when we’re talking about the narrative, you’re very skilled with telling someone else’s story on the plate. But Companion has a pretty good narrative of its own too. You have two cafes, one is attached to the bakery where you produce the bread and sweet goods, so you have a brand. How hard is it for you, personally, to shift gears between creating something for your customers and staying true to Companion? Because you chose the name Companion for a very specific reason.

Allen: Well, I guess in a certain sense, we’re sort of doing the same thing for ourselves that we do for others. And my sister happens to run our retail cafes. She’s been doing that since we started, and they’re really run as very separate businesses. Working with her to create the breads and the products that she wants to be able to tell the Companion story is really what we’re doing, you know, in the factory or from the wholesale perspective in providing those products. I guess it’s not as big of a departure, obviously it’s our brand and we have ownership in it. I get to play a little bit of a role in in defining the narrative, but we kind of look at it as the same thing and the same presentation. She’s done an amazing job in helping us craft that story and tell that story that we think fits with who we want to be, which is approachable, we want to have just great simple products, we want it to be a little bit fun. And I think she’s done a terrific job with the cafes and doing that.

Spencer: I didn’t get to see the one in Ladue. But the one that is attached to the bakery is just an incredible concept. It just has such a great feeling when you walk in the door. And it’s really something to see that consumer experience when they can order a sandwich and not only watch the steps of how the bread is made for that sandwich, but also read the signage along the windows describing the “why” really behind the steps. That’s something really special about your operation.

Allen: Yeah, we really wanted to invite folks into the process. I mean, that element of transparency was something that was super important to us. And obviously microbreweries had been doing it forever. But the challenge with microbreweries, it’s a guy and a hose, cleaning the floor, you don’t really get to see or interact with the product that’s happening in a brewery other than seeing the tanks usually. By having 30 or 40 bakers working behind the scenes and the process of sort of semi-automation that we kind of talked about, where we have equipment and machines pretty much in every process from mixing to makeup to baking to packaging, but we don’t convey any products between stations. So a baker’s rolling dough in tubs along the floor, we’re dumping into the dividers, we’re hand panning everything on the end, or whatever it is. So there’s a lot of human or baker involvement. But honestly, in the end, what’s been so fascinating for me is that the opposite has also been true, which is the value that it is created for our team to see folks come in and want to eat lunch and watch what they’re doing. It has been immeasurable. I certainly never appreciated that side of the open kitchen. I worked in an open kitchen in the restaurant business, but I was a kid, maybe wasn’t paying any attention. But what we’re seeing is the fact that the bakers really love the fact that what they do is valued by the public enough that somebody wants to come in and watch and see what they’re doing and point and wave. And that’s had a tremendous amount of value for our team, especially on busy days where 200 or 300 people might come through for lunch, I mean, it means a lot to our bakers to see that kind of crowd in there.

Spencer: I love that. So we started out talking about your story and transitioned to telling other people’s stories. And then we’re talking about what’s happening inside the bakery and the bakery team getting to see consumers enjoying the product that they make. And that is also so satisfying. I think it’s only appropriate that we close this episode with talking about, and I mentioned it, the intention behind the name Companion. And with that, can you tell me about the four C’s, and how those four C’s are kind of woven into the operation?

Allen: The Latin root of companion is compagnia, which means “with bread,” so Companion was someone with whom you shared bread or broke bread. And so our mission, our hope, is that people break more bread together. We want to be a catalyst for a conversation, whether that’s bread on the table, whether that’s a great sandwich, whatever that story is that’s being told… We’d love to play a role in or be a catalyst for that to kind of get started. And so that’s where the name came from.

The four C’s that you mentioned have sort of been our value statements. It’s our companions, our customers, our community and our company. We believe that obviously our main thing is to take care of our companions, you know, to keep them safe. Let them be in an environment in which they can grow personally and professionally and they’re compensated fairly. If we take care of our companions, they in turn will take care of our customers, who we need in order to purchase the product, and purchases perpetuate the growth and the expansion of the business. We then need to invest in our community because I believe that’s our responsibility as business owners. And that’s the community in which we serve ourselves, but also the community in which our companions live in. So it’s sometimes supporting things that they’re interested in and their endeavors. And then I believe strongly that if we take care of those three things the company will be taken care of because, in the end, that’s what’s got to keep going to build a sustainable future for us. They kind of work hand-in-hand, in concert with one another. And we try to use that as the backdrop for most decisions: Will this decision benefit the four C’s? And in which way? And do we feel good about that? If the answer is yes, then we sort of move forward with whatever direction that is that presents itself.

Spencer: I love that. And I love how those four C’s are visible throughout the bakery operation, I noticed as we were walking through the facility that they were posted on the walls in various places. I think that really supports this whole idea of baking as a narrative, that it all kind of plays a role in the story that you’re telling from beginning to end.

Allen: Yeah, I can’t add to that. That was that was very well articulated. We’re thrilled to be able to do it. And we still have passion to do it every day. And, you know, our team is more and more excited every day, which is also a big part of it. And as we’ve kind of woven our way through the pandemic, and the ups and downs of that, it’s been nice to have something to sort of hold onto and fall back on and make sure that we can stay grounded. It’s been a really, really challenging two years that we’re dealing with. And it’s really nice to have that foundation, because without that foundation, I think we might just kind of be falling in space somewhere.

Spencer: Yeah. Well, Josh, those are all my questions for this week. I’m really glad that I started this season with a discussion about the art of storytelling in the baking process, because you are truly an incredible storyteller. I think our audience is going to get a lot out of these stories that you have to tell in the coming weeks. So thank you so much for joining me. Next week, we are going to talk about your business case for sustainability, which is truly interesting and landed you a Tiptree World Bread Award as a sustainability hero. I’m excited to dig into that next week.

Allen: Well, I look forward to the continued conversations.