Welcome to Season 10 of the Troubleshooting Innovation podcast. Joanie Spencer, editor-in-chief for Commercial Baking, is spending this season with Julie Miller Jones, a member of the Grain Foods Foundation Scientific Advisory Board, and Charlotte Martin, registered dietitian and consultant for the Grain Foods Foundation. They’re debunking bread myths to help bakers develop delicious, healthy grain-based products — and help them educate consumers on the health benefits of bread. Sponsored by Lallemand Baking.

In the first episode, we get to know our experts and dive into the first myth: carbs vs. calories.

Learn more about this season here, and listen to Troubleshooting Innovation on Apple, Spotify and Google.

Joanie Spencer: Julie and Charlotte, thank you so much for joining me on this podcast.

Julie Miller Jones: You’re so welcome.

Charlotte Martin: Thank you for having us.

Spencer: I am excited to spend these next five weeks with you. I’ve been in the industry for about 15 years, so I’ve had my share of hearing myths and seeing their impact on commercial bakery producers. And I’m just excited to dive into them, dig into what’s true and what can help bakers produce great products that are also good for our bodies.

Let’s just first get to know you better. Julie, I’m going to start with you. You have such a long history with the Grain Foods Foundation and in the baking industry. Can you give me a brief recap on what that background looks like?

Miller Jones: I have a PhD in nutrition and food science. I taught dietitians, and I’m an economist, so I have a little bit of a consumer background. I call myself a mile wide and an inch deep because I taught so many different things. I was at a small university, so I would teach everything from beginning food science to nutritional biochemistry in the chemistry department to intercultural food patterns or experimental foods. Unlike a lot of PhDs, who know the infinite amount of folic acid down to how the reaction occurs, my real talent is the ability to take scientific information and make MDs understand it and make consumers understand it — and all the way in between.

I got into grains because Mississippi is where flour milling in the United States began and thrived. Because I’m from the ‘Mill City,’ early on in my career — back in the 1970s — I joined the American Association of Cereal Chemists, because all of the people from the big companies such as General Mills, Pillsbury and Multifoods, were there.

I did a lot of speeches for them, went to meetings and eventually became the president of the American Association of Cerial Chemists International. I wrote a regular column on what’s new in anything about grains from across the spectrum. I joined GFF the year it began and have been with them since the early 2000s.

Spencer: Charlotte, you bring a very different perspective. That’s one thing I’m excited about in this conversation is that we have two intelligent but very different perspectives on bread, and both who contribute greatly to the Grain Foods Foundation and its efforts.

You’re a registered dietitian and you have a strong digital presence. Can you share your background, how you developed this passion for helping people achieve healthy relationships with food and then how you got involved with DFF?

Martin: My passion for nutrition started with a fascination for the Paleo diet in college — which is funny considering I’m such a huge proponent of carbs and grains now — I did my honors project on the Paleo diet. So, I put professors on the Paleo diet.

Clearly, my nutrition philosophy has changed a lot. At that time, there was a social media presence, but it wasn’t as big as it is today. I realized I was falling into these nutrition myths of ‘carbs are bad.’ And then I realized that a lot of people just don’t know how and what to eat to support their optimal health. So that was when I decided that nutrition was what I wanted to do.

My first job as a dietitian just threw me out there into many different roles. I was working on the product development side, but then I was also working on the consumer side. That’s how I started getting into nutrition education on social media and television. Then I just ran with it. It’s been great because as much as I hate that there are so many myths out there on social media and just so much nutrition misinformation, it keeps me in business. I am constantly debunking nutrition myths and just trying to educate my followers who have been severely misinformed.

And then I got involved with GFF a few years ago; they had reached out about helping provide some quotes for digital magazines. I was doing that with them for a little while, now I’m doing some social media content and other things with them. It’s been a great mutually beneficial partnership.

Spencer: Awesome. Yes, I appreciate what you have brought to the thought leadership behind GFF. So, thank you both so much for joining me and providing these very specific and important perspectives on this.

I’m going to ask a pre question before we dive into this. You both are well versed in nutrition on the consumer side. I’m curious, based on your experience, what would you say are the most important things that commercial bakers need to know about people’s relationship with grain-based foods? What are the obstacles that these producers are working against?

Miller Jones: Throughout my career, it’s gotten worse, and there are more obstacles. If only we could go back to understanding that bread and grains are the staff of life, it’s what we need to do for sustainability and nutrition. Instead, we have good stuff on the web, but I think the fact that we have the web, we also have a lot of, ‘I eat, therefore I know, and I write a blog.’ And the more outrageous it sounds, the better it sells. And the more frightened people are.  

I think we have all these myths about low carb. All of those have been going on since I’ve been teaching, but they always come up with a new gimmick or name. That has always been going on in my career — this bashing of the bread and grain industry — just because they’re carbohydrate-containing. Then we have the anti-gluten thing that various famous people glob onto, and that gets people following these cockamamie diets.

Spencer: Charlotte, what about you?

Miller Jones: To add to what Julie said, I find that thanks to social media, a lot of people these days have become ‘carbophobes.’ They don’t necessarily stop eating carbs, but they’re afraid of them. And oftentimes, they feel guilty after eating carb-rich foods like bread. It’s been very hard to reframe that mindset, especially like Julie mentioned, since the past several decades have just been one low-carb diet after the other and now, we’re facing the carnivore diet and keto, which are just basically no carbs.

So, it has been challenging and consumers have become terrified of bread. A lot of what I see on social media are proponents for low-carb lifestyles and diets that misinterpret the research on grains, so that doesn’t help either. It has been challenging, but I think we have a lot of health professionals and food scientists on social media who have developed a large presence that are combating that misinformation.

Spencer: Okay, so based on that I’m ready to dig in and uncover what bakers can do to overcome these misconceptions. In this first episode, what I want to unpack is the perceptions that inevitably come with carbs and calories.

There’s this myth that bread and carbs lead to weight gain, but the truth is serving sizes are playing more of a role than the actual bread intake. What exactly does that mean?

Martin: I can start on this one. This myth that bread and carbs directly lead to weight gain is an oversimplification. In reality, weight gain is the result of consuming more calories than your body uses. That’s regardless of the source of these calories.

High-carb foods like any other food group only contribute to weight gain when they’re consumed in quantities that exceed our body’s caloric needs. It’s not the bread or carbs themselves that are inherently fattening, but rather that total caloric intake and the serving size that matter. So, when consumed in moderation, and as part of a balanced diet, bread will not automatically lead to weight gain. It’s just important to focus on portion control and overall caloric balance instead of eliminating specific foods or food groups like carbs and bread.

Miller Jones: I wish we could reframe the myth to a truth. The truth is that too many calories cause weight gain. For 50 years of my career, we beat the dead horse about fat. Fat was making us fat because it has 9 calories per gram and carbs don’t. Too many calories or too much protein can make you fat.

We need to reframe that it’s calories, not just carbs. It’s calories. The idea that calories don’t count is preposterous. A lot of the diet books tell you that you do need to count calories or you don’t need to exercise. Well, that’s silly and just stupid. If we could just reframe that myth — that it’s the calories — then we could actually change what’s going on.

Spencer: It makes me think back to when the Atkins diet came on the scene. It promoted that if you cut out carbs you could eat all the bacon and cheese that you want. But that’s not true; if you eat too much bacon and cheese, you’re not going to lose weight just because you’re not eating bread.

Then from a product development standpoint, how do you think bakers can be a part of the solution when you’re thinking about calorie intake rather than carb intake?

Miller Jones: The trouble is that people want to believe some sort of three-word sentence, ‘Don’t eat X’ or ‘Do eat X.’ That’s what they want. But if you continue wanting that, you’ll never reach the goal. The goal is that the dietary guidelines, USDA MyPlate or the Mediterranean diet, have acres of research that show when you balance the food groups, including breads, cereals and fruits, you are healthier. You are more likely to be of normal weight.

The DASH diet has been going on since 1997, and when people ate that, not only did they cut their blood pressure medicine in half and many came off of it, but they also lost weight, and reduced the risk of cancer.

 If only we could say there is no magic talisman in ‘Don’t eat X.’ What you need to concentrate on is using the four food groups in the right way. Balance means that you have to pick things from different groups. Until we do that, we will still be chasing our tails and gaining weight.

Spencer: I talked to a person who was at a high level of leadership in a baking company, and they decided to start selling half loaves. The company was very concerned that they were going to lose money if they were selling smaller loaves, but they flew off the shelves. Their profits didn’t change in selling half loaves. I feel like that’s a great part of the solution when we’re talking about calorie intake. If bakers can look at their packaging sizes, especially when consumers are also keeping waste top of mind. Those two can work in tandem.

Martin: That’s a great point, Joanie. I’ve been noticing that in the grocery stores near me, a couple of different brands have been offering those half loaves, which I think is a great idea. Another thing is I don’t know if you’ve seen those ultra-thin slices. They’re smaller, but I do feel like portions in general of many products have increased over the years. It’s nice to have that option, because every time you make a sandwich or have a piece of toast, you don’t have to eat this huge piece. It provides an option to still get that bread fix in but be able to choose a smaller slice, especially if they’re not that hungry. Usually when it’s in front of you, if your only option is a thick, huge slice of bread, you’re going to eat the whole thing. So, offering consumers different sizes, is a great idea.

Miller Jones: We also have many one- or two-person families now. That’s also really helpful because optimal bread is not put in the fridge; it’s left on the counter. The way I deal with that is I cut the loaf in half and then take it out as we need it, so it stays fresh. I think it’s a winner from not having too much around, but it’s also a winner for the budget and the environment. I think that’s a really great solution.

I think other solutions that some bakers have tried are thinner buns and mini bagels. I think most people don’t know that bagels are almost three and a half slices of bread. If you ask some people ‘How much bread did you have?’ they will say, ‘Well, I just had one bagel.’ But they don’t realize that bagels are half-proofed, so when they’re boiled in the water, which has a little bit of lye in it to give it a shiny surface, that is a lot more dough than you’d get if you were eating bread. We have a little bit of education to do there, but just ways to actually encourage smaller sizes, I think, is a really good idea.

Spencer: I agree. For years, there’s also been this rhetoric around white bread, and that it just contains empty calories with no nutritional value. Is that true?

Miller Jones: Well, half the world gets 50% of their calories from grains, and if you’re in a developing country, it’s more than that. If we’re promoting a sustainable and a plant-based diet, that’s where grains need to stay. When we start moving to eating more protein, which is what a lot of people are trying to do right now, that’s the most economically and environmentally expensive way we can eat. We need to dial back and look at how can we use the bread and why is bread there. Bread is there because it provides so many nutrients.

A study with NHANES showed that if we eliminated fortified bread products, we would reduce the number of people who are meeting the niacin requirements. Right now. 50% eat what we call the ‘estimated average requirement,’ which is what we consider the minimum you need. Without fortification over 50% don’t meet the estimated average requirement. With fortification, only 10% don’t meet it. That’s one nutrient; with folate 90% don’t need it, and with folate added to bread under 10% don’t need it. We can do that for iron, folate, niacin. People discount the importance of fortified white bread and grain products to their peril.

Spencer: Where do you think the opportunities are? How can bakers look at their formulas and reformulate to increase nutrients like fiber, in their products? Some people say whole wheat bread is the answer, but do white bread and whole wheat bread need to look at their formulas and increase those nutrients?

Martin: I think one option is experimenting with partial substitution of refined flour with whole grain flour and white bread. I know some bread manufacturers are already doing that, but it can improve the nutritional value in terms of things like fiber without significantly altering the traditional taste and texture of white bread. I think the issue there lies in that sometimes they use misleading wording on the packaging. So, they’ll call the bread multi-grain or say, ‘Made with whole grains,’ which consumers often interpret as the bread being completely 100% whole grain. I find that happens quite frequently.

I think experimenting with different flours … Dave’s Killer Bread has a white bread that uses both refined and whole wheat flours. They have enriched wheat flour and whole wheat flour in addition to, I think it was, barley, spelt, rye and quinoa flours. It adds a tiny little bit of fiber and probably some other micronutrients, but it still looks like white bread and tastes like white bread. I think that’s a good option there.

Miller Jones: The myth is that white bread doesn’t get any fiber, and that couldn’t be further from the truth. In that, 50% of the fiber intake that we get comes from white bread because we eat it so frequently. This idea that white bread is devoid of both nutrients and fiber, is just wrong.

In terms of what bakers can do, I know there’s research at Kansas State and other universities where they’re looking at taking varietals that naturally have higher fiber content and using those. I know that some companies are using resistant starch, which is a source of fiber. It functions like starch in grain; however, if you use too much you get a gritty feeling. But using resistant starch, which can be called modified corn starch, it won’t have a label name that is off-putting to most.

In addition to all the wonderful ways that Charlotte suggested by blending and making those sound alluring, using white whole wheat, which looks more like regular whole wheat in terms of color. It looks like white bread, rather than darkly colored with the ones that are much higher polyphenolics. Those are just some tactics that you can use.

I think it is important to mention that under 5% of people meet the fiber requirement. It is so important for all kinds of health, if we could just make people think calories do count and they aren’t getting enough fiber, I would die happy.

Spencer: I keep thinking about how I have spent the last 13 years trying to get my son to eat what’s good for him and get him to eat his veggies. I feel like that’s what we’re trying to accomplish with Americans — eat what’s good for you. There are tons of little strategies and tricks that, Charlotte, I’m sure you are well versed in, such as tricking our kids into eating their vegetables. What is the key to getting consumers to eat what’s good for them when it comes to bread?

Martin: I think that’s a great question. When it comes to children specifically, I would think that packaging plays a big role here, interactive packaging that features fun characters. Even if it is a whole grain bread, incorporating fun characters, bright colors or interactive elements can make it more attractive to children. I think it’s about making healthy eating a fun and enjoyable experience.

Another thing bakers could do is engage in educational and promotional activities aimed at children. This could involve hosting baking workshops for kids where they learn the benefits of healthy eating and get hands-on experience in the breadmaking process. That’s also another time when they can educate children and parents on the benefits of bread and what goes between bread.

Spencer: I love that. I must put a mental pin in that comment because in a couple of episodes, we’re going to talk about misconceptions around processing. So, I need to remember that in thinking about some transparency around processing is not a bad word.

Miller Jones: I think you could also have games, such as ‘Have You Had Your Fiber Today?’ Classrooms could make it a competition and say, ‘Who got the most fiber today, and what did you get it from?’ This way you know it comes only from plant foods and that grains, fruits and vegetables are important sources by putting together a sandwich that has fruits, vegetables and grains. You could support school programs; that could be a fun idea that would get you publicity and might help improve children’s nutrition.

Spencer: I love it. I have one last question that may be an ethereal question. We’re going to close it out with this discussion. Is it realistic to envision a future where bread correlates with healthy weight? Can we get there, and what will it take to get there?

Martin: I certainly think so, maybe not in the near future. I think what is most important is education. We just need to change this narrative around bread by dispelling the myths and highlighting how certain types of bread can be a healthy part of our diet. I think this involves some transparent labeling and proactive communication about the benefits of these healthier options. A lot of that could easily be done via social media campaigns since so much marketing is done on social media. Then also a cultural shift and how we perceive and consume bread is essential.

Encouraging moderation and understanding that role of bread in a balanced diet. It is really just about educating around making informed choices. It’s not just about the type of bread we eat, but also about the portion sizes and how we incorporate it into our overall diet. What else are we serving the bread with? Because again, it is more about what is between those slices than the bread itself when it comes to weight management.

Miller Jones: I’d like to modify your dream. I think you did a great job, but I would like it to be a future where diet correlates with health, rather than just bread. If we get the bread right, and the other things wrong, it won’t be a healthy weight or a healthy diet. I am a whole diet person. I believe you can have cake on your birthday; I think you should have cake on your birthday. But I don’t think you should eat cake every day.

So, how can we put together the idea that choosing the right things regularly, in the right mix, brings about healthy diets, overall health and healthy weight? Until we do that, we will be chasing myth after myth after myth. I’ve watched people do it with different kinds of myths, and they only got fatter. Until we say, ‘I’m going to take the USDA MyPlate, the Mediterranean diet or the DASH diet,’ which includes all the elements of the diet in the right amounts.

Spencer: Do you think Americans can get to that balance?

Miller Jones: Can versus will. Two-thirds of the population are overweight. When you ask people if they have a good diet, two-thirds of the people say, ‘Yes.’ So, somebody’s lying. Until we look at ourselves and say, ‘We are the problem. I am not doing this right. It’s not because XYZ company made me eat this food. I chose to eat it. It was an enjoyable choice, but I shouldn’t do it all the time.’ I think we can get there; I’m not sure we have the will.

Charlotte has much more optimism to go forward with it.

Martin: I know, but I also have the pessimism of being on social media all the time and just seeing how confusing nutrition messaging in general is. I have to agree with you; I think we could potentially, but I think it will take a lot. Nutrition messaging in general in the media is just all over the place, and consumers are confused.

They’re so focused on avoiding seed oils that they completely just miss the concept of consuming a balanced diet rich in whole grains, legumes and produce. I don’t know if we can get there anytime soon. I think it is promising that we do have a lot of nutrition experts who are growing a voice and providing sound nutrition information.

Miller Jones: In my career span, I have seen, ‘If everybody would only eat less fat, we would be healthier.’ So that brought on the cookies that said had no fat, and customers ended up eating the whole package. And now we’re going to do it with carbs. I think it’s going to go on for a while longer.

Now, protein is the salvation. But then I think we will see protein has some risks too. But maybe we will get smarter. If we could get somebody famous, but not terribly controversial, to lead the charge, maybe that would be helpful. But we may just need a Pied Piper to bring us out of what our demons are.

Spencer: I do think that the good news is people want to learn about their food, but the bad news is that people want to learn about their food as well. That’s where they’re consuming good information and misinformation. I do think that people like you, Charlotte, who are out there in the social media and in the digital space, communicating good information helps. If we can teach bakers not only how to develop good and healthy products but also communicate that their products are healthy and enjoyable to consume, I think we can get there. But I agree, it’s probably not going to be tomorrow. I think at some point we can get there, we just need to fight the good fight and continue putting out good information.

Miller Jones: I know before social media, there was an article that looked at media in general. It found that one out of five pieces of information was nutritionally accurate. I assume that with the web, which is impossible to monitor, it’s probably one out of every 1,000 now. People will go to where their fears are. They also want to have lost weight yesterday. When someone says, ‘Well, if you just do X, you’ll be thinner.’ People so want to believe that.

But if we can get just a list of communicators, that the baking industry says these people in general, give reliable information that might be helpful. Or somewhere the average baker can go and then have something in their marketing that says today’s tip, so they’re not constantly being bombarded by incorrect information.

Spencer: Yes, that is a good point. Ladies, thank you so much for such a compelling first episode. It was great just getting to know you. We really just skimmed the surface on this discussion around myths. I’m really looking forward to the next four weeks. We’re going to dive into myths around the glycemic index, sodium, intake processing and then we’re going to look at Americans’ relationship with sandwiches, because that’s even getting some myths thrown its way. Then we’re going to close out this season by talking about women’s health. That’s really important and I’m excited to dive into how bread and grain-based foods can support women’s health as well. I’m so looking forward to these next few weeks with you and tapping your brains. Next week we are going to talk about bread’s connection to the glycemic index.