In the final episode of the Troubleshooting Innovation podcast, Dave Van Laar speaks directly to the audience, responding to questions they’ve submitted throughout the series. He touches on topics such as what to look for in a supplier, how to innovate in the midst of supply chain disruptions and what the evolution of trends will look like in the future and beyond. Hosted by Joanie Spencer, Commercial Baking editor-in-chief.

Sponsored by Reading Bakery Systems.

Joanie Spencer: In this episode, Dave and I will be discussing listener questions. Dave, you’re very popular! We’ve got a lot of questions to go over. The first one I received pertains to the conversations we had about the evolution of trends leading up to the pandemic and the disruption we’ve seen. Looking forward, this listener wants to know: What is your view of new product introductions into the future? Do you think decisions will be more data-driven?

Dave Van Laar: I think innovations will come at an even faster pace than they have, Joanie. If that doesn’t seem possible, just hang on because you’re going to see it happen. And that’s not because more data is available — we already have data overload in so many areas — but the interpretation of that data is going to become more sophisticated. Just collecting data pushes one into “analysis paralysis,” and nothing happens. We need to decide what to do with that data, and I think that’s where we are getting suppliers in the industry a lot more savvy.

I firmly believe supplier innovation centers play a key role in this whole thing. Equipment manufacturers want to make equipment that meets our needs as bakers, and we’ve seen several sophisticated facilities built in the past few years. These capabilities are just outstanding, both in equipment and ingredient areas. In fact, some of these would rival small bakeries in themselves. I would suggest to stay in touch with your trade journals for open houses that they sponsor. For me, it’s the best way to see new technology but also talk with the engineers for their thoughts on process equipment design. It’s important that we take this data, which we’ve had all along, and really do something with it.

I go back to the ’80s — again, full of stories — when we started collecting all the UPC information at store level, I remember the dream back then was that every time someone pulls a unit off the shelf, it would generate a replenishment order at the factory. Well that didn’t quite happen, but the data is there to do that. For the most part, we’ve used it just to track what’s happened and not what is going to happen. The smart ones are going to take the data they’ve seen and interpret it into something more meaningful than was used in the past.

Spencer: Do you think we could do a better job of tracking what did happen and using it to predict what will or could happen?

Van Laar: I think we’ve always pretty much known the trends. We know them at a much faster pace now. But the entry into market has become so fast for people. I’ll never forget going to meetings with major suppliers, major cookie/cracker/bread companies, and the executives were pushing those people in the labs to come out with more new products. As you and I have talked in the past, a lot of times, that’s where a contract manufacturer comes in because they are more agile than some of the major players.

The people have always been pushing for this innovation. We’ve always had data — we’ve had Nielsen, IRI, all those things — but we’re forced now, in this fast-paced world, to make more sense of that data more quickly.

Spencer: Let’s circle back to talk about the product development. You mentioned the suppliers and the innovation centers, and how some of them rival small bakeries. What role do you see the suppliers — especially those ones with the innovation centers — playing in new product development, moving into the future?

Van Laar: That’s a great question, Joanie. First of all, get connected with those innovation centers. Choose a supplier you’re comfortable with and establish a relationship. That’s what made several people very successful over the years: They found suppliers that could give what they needed, they knew the supplier’s capabilities and they used them. But get to know the capabilities of those innovation centers.

I was impressed to see an ingredient supplier with a creative center larger than what most manufacturers have in-house. They also have the knowledgeable staff right there to assist. There are not many secrets in our industries, although many bakers think they have a lot of proprietary processes, you could be sure a lot of people are aware of what they’re doing.

I believe the combination of a good R&D baker with a smart engineer could come up with about any solution to any new problem … but they’ve got to listen to each other. That’s the key. They need to see what the other is attempting to accomplish and not just pull some solution off the shelf. As a project manager, I’ve spent a lot of time watching R&D, product development people working with equipment and ingredient suppliers. The most success I’ve seen is those that work together as a team and come up with a solution. There’s nothing wrong with that. Some people feel threatened by that, some feel they’re not giving their expertise enough credence. But to me, finding the best resources we can is the best way to solve a problem. These centers have come up because of that. They have sprung up because there is a need. They have seen it, and we’ve actually asked for those from these equipment suppliers. Now they’re there and we need to take advantage of them.

Spencer: I totally agree. The next question we received pertains to innovation when it comes to automation. This listener wanted to know: In your opinion, when do you feel that innovation and automation integration feedback loops and operational confidence will allow a truly “lights out” bakery? How far off is that?

Van Laar: Never. Next question.

But seriously, that’s extremely difficult. The biggest thing that people do not want to hear is the variability of our inputs. We are working with agricultural commodities and there will always be a need for a baker somewhere. I once toured a well-known equipment supplier’s equipment all over their country, which was overseas, and I remember one pizza plant that they had. The process started with pieces of bread that were garnished and baked, and when they took this through the processing area, it was basically dark; there was no one present. They really bragged on that, through the translator, that it just ran itself. And it was running beautifully. But as we continued through the oven room, I just happened to hang back a little bit. When we all cleared the processing area, I saw five or six workers scurry back into the process area with flashlights so we couldn’t see the lights come on. We talk about it, we try, we almost get there … but I’m not sure that a “lights out” facility is really going to happen.

We do, however, need to do more than we’re doing today. Reading Bakery Systems, for instance, has two divisions. One makes and sells ovens and bakery processing equipment; the other builds and sells monitoring equipment that monitors those ovens. I believe there’s opportunity to use information available from that scorpion-type device to feed back to the oven real time, to maintain consistent quality. What we do now is run that device through the oven to see what’s going right or wrong, then make adjustments. We need to bridge that gap between finding out what’s wrong and putting that information back into the oven so it’s self-correcting. I think there’s opportunity there.

Back in the ’80s, we did that on a project where we were going to weigh every dough ball coming off the depositor. It got expensive. It doubled the price of the oven and processing equipment, so we decided not to do it, but it was the way we were trying to go: To get real feedback information back into the processing system. I think that’s one thing where we have totally relied upon our people to do, instead of trying to find automated types of solutions.

Spencer: Do you think we should rely more on the automation for that? And take a little bit of the human error/risk factor out?

Van Laar: I believe we can go further with automation. I believe we can go further with not eliminating the human element, but helping the human element. I was very impressed one day to watch an operation where the information was coming back real time to the operators, and they were making adjustments real time to keep the process in control. We talked about that in a previous episode. But it still required operator interface. We haven’t closed that gap to where we can take that real-time information and make adjustments to the system as we go. So there’s still human interaction that is involved. We’ve made some progress in some areas, but in total, we still haven’t done that.

For instance, the temperature of each zone through the oven, the humidity, the air flow … we can measure all those things. But then what do we do with it? That’s important because the indicator may not tell exactly what’s happening in the oven. Real life may be different inside. That’s why we send a device through the oven to make sure the measurements are correct.

Spencer: We have another question. This person was wanting to tap into your expertise on what bakers need to consider before diving into an automated dosing and dispensing system. What key factors should they be looking for?

Van Laar: That’s a good question. I see it often and, unfortunately, too often with poor results. Choosing the right equipment for an operation is difficult, especially if you’re new in the business or growing to the next level. Almost all companies go to that plateau where they may go from a rack oven to a band oven, they may go from a small mixer to a big mixer, but their lack of knowledge in the industry makes it difficult for them to proceed.

There’s no lack of information available on the internet. Suppliers are available for everything that’s out there. My advice, and where I’ve been successful, is to find a supplier you know of. Ask to see their equipment in action. That’s No. 1: Make sure you’ve covered everything about that person. Don’t just take somebody’s word for it, but ask them if you can go see the equipment running somewhere. Then normally, you get to ask the people that are operating the equipment if it’s meeting their needs. I tend to stay away from brand new things that are introduced without some sort of track record.

The biggest thing to me is that if someone is at that point, think strategically about the whole process. We’re talking about one piece of the process here. How is it going to affect the entire operation? For instance, what capacity do I need today for this equipment? And how much growth do I expect to see? Am I going to buy a 1,000 lb mixer or a 2,000 lb mixer today? Sometimes it may be overkill but my plan is to grow into that very quickly. Then again, how much sophistication and automation do I really need? Looking at: Do I have the people to fill in those areas and not enough capital to really automate? And also, how does that new equipment fit into the rest of the system?

Bottleneck studies are so critical. I’ve been through project management with people in crucial situations where things have failed because of one piece they forgot. For instance, they automated and went to the next level, but they found out the flour delivery system couldn’t keep up. They went to the next level and found out their packaging equipment was the real bottleneck. So make sure you look at the entire line as a whole and plan it such that each piece will develop you toward where you want to go.

There are so many good manufacturers out there, and there are many good used equipment dealers out there. That cuts the lead time down dramatically. They’re not junk dealers; they’re good equipment dealers. You just have to know who you’re dealing with. Look for industry recommendations and referrals for that equipment, and you can see the name on that equipment is what you would get from a new manufacturer. Get one that’s been rebuilt and ready for your service. It cuts down tremendously on time to delivery.

Spencer: It’s interesting to hear you mention getting those referrals from industry colleagues and other bakers. I’ve heard those stories when I’ve been in bakeries with new line extensions. They’ve told me about going to visit other bakeries and really getting feedback on what systems worked well for them and where they saw their challenges. So, that’s one thing we didn’t really talk about. Can you tell me about your experience with getting advice from other bakers, going into other facilities to look at their equipment or to get referrals on a piece of equipment you were maybe looking to invest in?

Van Laar: I have found, especially in cookie and cracker, that’s relatively easy to do if you come toward it in the right way. If you want to just get information that’s not proprietary, that’s non-competitive, and just has to do with that equipment, most bakers are very willing to let people come in and visit. Most of them can be arranged by the equipment manufacturers also. That is so important, to me, that you see the equipment running. It makes a big difference, especially if you have no history with it. They’ll generally tell you what they like and what they don’t like about the equipment. This is a very competitive industry but I’ve found it’s also a very friendly industry. One thing I miss about that is the trade shows. That’s probably where I see the biggest exchange of free information that makes a lot of sense. A lot of business is discussed at conventions that relates specifically to bakers’ needs. We’ve always made the best use of those by having suppliers meet with us regularly at those conventions, but also you can get referrals — getting to know the other people, going to meetings like the American Bakers Association (ABA).

I’ve always said that groups like ABA and other associations out there, the poor suppliers tend to get weeded out. They just don’t seem to survive in an environment where everyone knows who is doing what, and how good they are at it. So, that’s one thing I know that we miss right now: those conventions where we can ask our colleagues what’s going on.

Spencer: I miss trade shows, Dave.

Van Laar: I do too. That was always much of a learning experience, but also a great way to keep up and to know these people. Contacts are so critical. You just never, never know. And when you do need to know it, you better have those contacts lined up, because it’s going to be too late to try to develop that. This industry is terrific for referrals. I’ve called people that couldn’t do it for us but they recommended someone else that could. Just getting to know people face-to-face… This is a very personal business, with getting to know people, and they’ll answer your questions or they’ll tell you where you can find an answer.

Spencer: Absolutely, they will. That’s what I love about this industry. So listen, Dave, I have to tell you that I had a question come in identifying you as a “cookie and cracker industry icon.”

Van Laar: Uh-oh!

Spencer: You do have a storied career, there’s no denying that. And this person wants to know: What has been your most significant challenge in your career and how did you overcome it? On the flip side, was there a challenge that you were unable to fix that you would have just used a magic wand to solve it, if you could?

Van Laar: Oh, the old magic wand I have stored in the back room. Well, Joanie, “storied career” may not be a total accurate description, but I have had a career filled with wonderful stories.

The people I’ve met and worked with have been some of the best people I’ve ever known and continue to know. As we just talked about, those friendships run deep. Even though our industry is extremely competitive, you wouldn’t know it when you do things like what we just talked about: when you need help. These companies help each other when disaster strikes, they offer business to others if they cannot fill their own customers’ needs. I’ve seen plants have major fires, then other manufacturers come in and offer equipment to help get them back up and running. We’ve had people going through the COVID issue, where others have volunteered to help make product for them to get them through the crunch. This friendship that we see there goes beyond business. It lasts a lifetime, and it goes beyond just cookies, crackers and bread. I’ll tell you, Joanie, I’ve seen such deep faith in these people. That may have a lot to do with the way they conduct their business. Their principles go much higher than the store shelf itself.

But the difficult thing also comes back to people. Without question, the most important aspect of our business is the people: people we can count on to execute our plans. We can build the most sophisticated equipment, utilizing the latest technologies, but if the operators are not fully educated and motivated, we can’t guarantee success. This example still amazes me … a major baker installed several new horizontal wrappers. They had all the bells and whistles they could buy. The factory technician from the supplier came and finished the install; everything was working well. The following week, the baker called the supplier and said, “Hey, our equipment is not working. Can you come down and fix it?” So, the supplier sent the tech back into the bakery to adjust the machines. All he did was put them back to the factory specs. All was good again. Unbelievably, Joanie, this happened five times over the next few weeks. Five times, the baker called and said, “Our equipment is not running right.” All the factory rep did, every time, was just adjust the machines back to factory specifications.

We’ve all seen this. We’ve all seen operators change from first shift to second shift to third shift. I’ve often said, “Let’s take the buttons off this equipment. Let’s just put a knob that doesn’t do anything.” Like the old thermostat in my office: It didn’t do anything but it looked good. You could turn it all day long and think it was getting cooler, but it didn’t change anything. Until we can get our operators to buy into new technology and learn how to adjust equipment properly, we’re just destined to failure. And that goes back to education. That goes back to the knowledge that exists, but the issue is how to get it to the people that are doing it. It is more than just a job. How do people use that information effectively?

But it’s hard to blame the bakers, also, as we look at this. Turnover rate is over 100% a year. They get frustrated by investing in people that just go away. They just go somewhere else or don’t work, because sometimes they’re there to not work. We’ve been talking for years about creating careers for our employees. These careers are available; we just need to connect the right people to the right employees. The ABA continues its effort to do just that. Christina Donnelly has been doing a great effort — both with veterans as they get out of the service and also with others — to highlight the careers in the baking industry. If anyone is thinking about how to get into the industry or how to get people motivated, give Christina a call. She can explain what’s available out there. It’s a wonderful career that’s given me so much. I’ve been around the world with it and met so many friends that I still have. I would encourage anybody else to have that same care for your employees that people had for me as I was coming up through the industry.

Spencer: In talking about that knowledge transfer, we spent a whole episode talking about the challenges. Just earlier in this episode, we were talking about the suppliers and the ones with R&D and innovation centers that can help with product development. How do you think suppliers, moving forward with those innovation centers, can also help guide these bakers and participate in that knowledge transfer? How can they use those innovation centers not only for product R&D but also for educating young bakers?

Van Laar: That’s frustrating, Joanie. As I think about that question, Joanie, I think about the beautiful centers that these people have built and how hard they work to get people to come through them. It just amazes me that these things are available to us and we don’t use them as much as we could. They hold open houses, seminars, and I think it’s a huge opportunity for us. As I said, most of them would compete with a small bakery in a lot of areas. Everything is available there. I believe that’s such a thought center that we can make use of, to get the baker and the equipment supplier together.

What I like to see is the people who are really knowledgeable about the equipment and R&D; they know how things interact, they know what the oven does and they also give advice to the engineers to say, “If we could do this, we would be a lot better off.” We used to live in two different worlds where we as bakers would complain about the manufacturers … they don’t do this, they don’t do that. Well, shame on us for doing that if we’re not regularly in their innovation centers, telling them what we need. They’re there! Utilize them. I have yet heard of someone getting kicked out of somebody’s innovation center.

Spencer: That’s a really good point.

Van Laar: And that’s what they want. What more would an ingredient or equipment supplier want than to hear what the user has to say.

Spencer: Right. So listen, I’ve been having several conversations recently about the disruption that’s happening in supply chain right now. It’s really throwing things off-kilter for everyone. How can bakers navigate product innovation in the midst of unusually long lead times on equipment and raw materials if operations are still growing?

Van Laar: That’s an outstanding question that’s so pertinent today. My first thought is to rely on our suppliers even more, and have more constant contact with them. They have alternatives too, but if you shop every time you buy something on price, you don’t get a lot of loyalty out there with the suppliers. I’ve found that there are certain times you need to keep them on track with price, especially the big commodity stuff, but with the smaller stuff, they’re willing to work with you to get the right price you need and supply it. Too often we do it in a vacuum, where we think we have all the answers. We go out to just try to solve it ourselves.

I like to put the onus back on those suppliers to help us partner with them. Partnering is a word that kind of went away over the years. But maybe there are alternative materials available; I’ve found that before. We were doing a sugar-free, and R&D had to have this one specific ingredient. Well, we worked with the supplier and there were other alternatives that were oven-stable that we were able to use. Not only were they more plentiful, but they were cheaper in price.

We’ve talked about the Madagascar vanilla that’s only available every two years when the ships are floating and the Suez Canal is not blocked and all those sorts of things, haha. We need to stay away from those very unique ingredients that we have limited access to. But once again, the importance of strategic planning comes in here. If you’re not sure where you’re going, it’s difficult for the suppliers to know how to help you. I know we were working with some off-shore ingredients at one time, and we laid out a plan for the year and that’s what we both held to. They were able to commit to buying that for us and having it imported, and we were also committed to using it. It made a big difference instead of just trying to spot-buy those things on the open market.

Spencer: The suppliers are really struggling right now with their own shortage of materials in the disruption in supply chain. So I know there are bakers that are growing, and the lead times on getting the equipment installed is much longer than anticipated. Is there anything you can think of that bakers can do internally to work with increased demand for their product when they’re already at capacity, while they’re waiting for new lines to come in?

Van Laar: Absolutely. I have rarely found a production line that cannot be improved to some percentage. There’s something somewhere that is holding that line back, and getting the most of the current lines is probably the easiest and most efficient way to get that extra capacity. Knowing where you’re going is crucial, but if it’s just not getting there — and I’ve seen it over and over, where people will say, “We just can’t get there!” — there are some obvious solutions that someone on the outside looking in can see. And they can do some minor modifications sometime to increase the throughput significantly. I’ve seen this happen regularly. So even when people tell you that’s all your equipment will produce, don’t assume that you’re at 100% efficiency with it.

The other thing that we talked about earlier is, if you do need new equipment, used equipment suppliers are a great source for that. You buy the same brand name materials for one or two pieces of equipment for that line, and that may help you get through that bottleneck. I’ve worked with several companies where that’s been the case: There is one piece that’s holding up the whole operation from growth, and that one piece can sometimes be overcome in several different ways. So having someone come in, look at your operation and do an efficiency study or a bottleneck study, really could make a big difference.

Spencer: That’s really good advice. The last question I want to ask you, Dave, is about educating on the art of baking. It’s something I’ve heard a bit of talk about out there in the industry, so I wanted to throw this in as a final question. When we’re looking to the future of education in the baking industry — especially on the art side and not just the science side — what role do you see yourself playing as an educator in the industry moving forward?

Van Laar: We need to get information into the hands of the line workers and incent them to pursue that career in bakery. I’ve seen that so many times by doing a training class in the plant. People get excited about it. If they know what they’re doing and why they’re doing it, it makes a bigger difference to them.

I’m always available to work with any organization and help develop educational programs. I’m also available to do bottleneck studies or efficiency studies, on things I’ve done over the years. And I’ve seen a lot of success through well-done education. It’s more than just technical knowledge; it’s investing in our employees, and that’s never a wasted effort.

Spencer: If anyone in the industry is interested in getting some advice from you one-on-one, say to do an efficiency study, they could just reach out to us at info@avantfoodmedia.com, and we could get them in touch with you.

Van Laar: Sounds good, Joanie.

Spencer: So Dave, those are all our questions from our listeners. I think it’s just a really fantastic way to wrap up this series, Troubleshooting Innovation.

Van Laar: I’ve enjoyed this. It’s always fun to talk about the industry.

Spencer: Absolutely. Again, you are truly an industry icon and an expert. Thank you for sharing all your insight with us and helping the industry think about innovation and product innovation on several different levels. This has been a privilege and a really great learning experience. So thank you very much.

Van Laar: Thank you for the opportunity.

In the final episode of the Troubleshooting Innovation podcast, Dave Van Laar speaks directly to the audience, responding to questions they’ve submitted throughout the series.