­In this episode of the Troubleshooting Innovation podcast, Dave Van Laar, industry expert and consultant, talks about perfecting the knowledge transfer and what old-school bakers can teach the incoming generation about the baking process. Hosted by Joanie Spencer, Commercial Baking editor-in-chief.

Sponsored by Reading Bakery Systems.

Joanie Spencer: Hi, Dave. We all know there’s a shortage of skilled workers coming into the industry, but this week I want to talk about how to develop the workforce that’s already here. I know there’s a lot of knowledge that needs to be transferred to this new generation, and I’d love to talk to you about what that looks like.

Dave Van Laar: It is certainly a hot topic. There’s no question.

Spencer: And I know you have a lot of insight into this, so I’m excited to dive into this with you.

Van Laar: Well, when you’re in the trenches, Joanie, you can’t help but call it a crisis because that’s exactly what it has been.

Spencer: Right. And it’s not only finding those workers, but it’s developing the skills of the workers that are actually here.

Van Laar: No question, that is one of the biggest things, and it goes back to some fundamentals that people talk about regularly on developing people. That’s job satisfaction. And we talked about how to make this a career and not just a job, and what are we doing as an industry to do that? How are we helping our people understand that they’re part of a bigger whole that’s actually fun? I’ve loved this industry for 45 years. How can we impart some of that to the people that are out there today, to encourage them to make this a career and jump on all those opportunities that are available out there in baking?

Spencer: Exactly. I think there’s a common misconception from outside of the industry that I recognized relatively early on in covering this industry: That when it comes to automation, people outside of the industry have a tendency to assume that baking companies are just trying to eliminate jobs and lower that head count, but automation is actually helping accommodate for that lack of workforce.

Van Laar: In 40 years, I can honestly say that we have never automated and deleted anyone from the workforce. I don’t believe that’s ever happened. We’ve automated as we continued to grow. One plant I was in, we went from I think 50 million lbs. to 100 million lbs. of production with the same employees. No one left. We had some people trend through, but automation is not there just to replace people, by any means.

Spencer: Exactly. Right. How is automation helping make the job easier for these new bakers coming in, who haven’t had the opportunity to grasp that art and science of baking?

Van Laar: One thing that we found when we had that significant growth was that people that were just working the line previously became operators, they became line engineer-type people, and that gave them more career satisfaction, I believe. Running a machine is a little more rewarding than picking up cookies all day long and putting them in a tray.

But some of the things we’ve done over the years to help the whole process is, for instance, barcode scanning on the ingredients in the mixing room. Mistakes in mixing are something that no one wants to talk about, but they occur regularly. The problem is that when those mistakes happen, most people try to cover it up and send that dough down the line, which just makes it harder for everyone else. So, barcode scanning was instituted in several areas. Number one, to make sure they’re putting the right ingredient in the mixer. It also made it easier to control lot tracking, which has become so crucial in our environment of allergens today. The other thing we have is the formula on the screen today. As you know, the generation that’s coming up behind us, they are screen people. They see it on the video and then work with it. And I think all those things make their job easier, as long as they follow the procedures that are established out there.

Spencer: I want to talk a little bit about something you said that really struck me, and that’s job satisfaction. It made me think of a bakery I visited that had significantly increased its automation in the process and gone from a mostly manual process to a mostly automated process … What it did was not eliminate any jobs, but it actually created choices for those workers in where they wanted to be on the line. Because when things were automated, it opened up options, especially for women. Can you talk a little bit about some of the options that automation has brought to create that job satisfaction?

Van Laar: As I mentioned earlier, the operators’ jobs became available, and that starts with the training, the education to run the machines. Now we’re going from just picking something up and placing it down to actually running a piece of equipment. There are certain people that just did not want to take on that responsibility — they just wanted to do what they had always done — but those were few and far between. Most people wanted to jump at an opportunity to train. In the last place I was, we actually developed a training program. We realized the importance of training, so we had three trainers bringing those people along. In a plant of 300 people, I think 150 had operator-type jobs.

Spencer: Wow. Let’s take it just a step further. Automation. It makes life easier, it creates choices, but it can’t really teach that art and science of baking. Only experience can do that, right?

Van Laar: There is no question. That’s one thing that I think has been misunderstood. People will always try to cut corners, and I’ve seen that forever — they think it makes their job easier, they can take longer breaks, longer rest periods — but it actually makes it harder for everyone else on the line. For instance, lay time. That’s one of my favorite subjects because it has a significant impact on the rest of the line most of the time. If that lay time varies significantly, because the mixer wants to get ahead and take a longer lunch break, then oven adjustments are required. Then the quality parameters begin to vary. Then the packaging department sees a different product, and the operators start to make adjustments there. By the time that’s all settled down, the mixer comes back from break and does it all the way he’s supposed to do it. And then the line goes through the same ritual to get it back to specification.

So when people cut corners, when people cheat — even with automation, that’s possible — they can mess up the process.

Spencer: It’s true … You can’t cheat the system, right?

Van Laar: We’ve always been looking at ways to fix, if you will, that human interface. The reality is people will always find ways to do it a little bit better.

Spencer: I talked to a baker once who sang the praises of automation, but he just echoed the same sentiment that you have: There’s more to it than pushing a button, and that’s what’s missing with this new generation. We make it easier so all they have to do is push the button. But to your point: One, that’s not going to keep them in our workforce and it’s not going to create job satisfaction, and two, it’s also not going to teach them about baking. What can these old-school bakers teach the new bakers? And what are the key traits that they have to impart on them to understand the process?

Van Laar: Joanie, as you and I have talked often, the education is so critical in this industry. We assume people know some things about what they’re doing, when in reality, they’ve just been put into a job and told what to do, not the wise old owls of what they’re doing. We need to show them by example. We need to show them how their job affects the rest of the bakery and how changes they make affect the rest of the jobs of everyone else in there.

That debate of art vs. science is never going to end, I don’t believe. I’ve especially seen new managers come into this industry and argue the science over the art of baking. They want to make the process foolproof for the employees and the reality — and not the excuse but the reality — is we’re dealing with highly variable inputs. Look at the variables in flour, for instance. It’s our major ingredient. The variables that are out of our control will always be the most significant variables in the process. I love the quote by Dr. Irfan Hashmi of GrainCorp: “Two lots of flour are never exactly the same. A perfectly standardized flour is impossible from mill to mill and even less from crop year to crop year. If that’s the case, how do we make baking more scientific? Can we take a scientific measurement to help determine the final product?” Dr. Hashmi goes on to explain, “The baking characteristics of flour are not definitively indicated by chemical tests.” So, here’s an expert who knows much more about the process of wheat and flour, telling me that they’re just not going to be able to make that a science. It’s always going to be variable.

Spencer: Wow. That kind of makes me think any kid who said, “I’m never going to have to use math in real life,” didn’t become a baker.

Van Laar: It’s interesting. One of the tests we do is a basic math test for employees because they do have to add, they do have to read things. We can make it easier. For instance, when you have products going into a mix and they have lots of different types of numbering systems or lot code systems, if you make those standardized, it is so much easier for the employee to do their job and you actually get better results.

Spencer: I feel like you have to understand the rules. As a journalist, it’s kind of how I feel about grammar. You have to understand those parameters and understand those rules in order to properly bend them.

Van Laar: But look at grammar today, Joanie. We don’t teach cursive. We don’t do “you are” as “you’re,” not “you are.” It’s a whole other thing now, so we’re facing that everywhere. I imagine that makes you cringe about as much as it does me see somebody cheat on a mix.

Spencer: Yeah. But if you understand those parameters and you understand the rules and, like you said, the “why” behind what you’re doing, then you’ll be able to make those adjustments to solve for X properly.

Van Laar: Absolutely. And that only to me comes from hands-on experience, one way or another, either passed down or taught. Our forefathers and mothers in the biscuit and cracker industry realized that over 50 years ago. The B&CMA developed programs — and they were training programs, education programs written by these bakers — because even back then 50 years ago, they knew that these people would be retiring. And how do we pass this information along? They established those education programs to pass on that knowledge. Now this is not an advertisement, it’s a fact. It’s one that really amazes me that more people do not take advantage of. Those programs are now available through the American Bakers Association, the Bakers Manufacturing Academy. They’re written by bakers, for bakers. That’s just not the sales claim; that’s exactly what they do.

There is a significant amount of science in those courses. If we go back to that science vs. art discussion, if you tell me there’s more science than art, I’m going to ask you, “So, what are you doing to teach your people that science?” Science is more discreet than the art, I think they would all argue, but those courses do exactly that. It takes a kernel of wheat and it turns it into a loaf of bread or a cookie, whatever you’re making. You can’t perfect that art without a solid understanding of the science behind it.

Spencer: I could not agree with you more. Those courses and the education offerings through the associations are so important. And we talked a little bit about that during our roundtable discussion during iba.CONNECTING EXPERTS, how back in the day, it was such a privilege to go to the B&CMA Tech Conference, which is now ABA Tech Con. But it’s harder now; it’s hard to be gone from the plant for three to five days. Do you think there is a responsibility for these veteran bakers to be teaching in the plant? Taking time to say, “Hey, let me show you this. Let me talk you through this”?

Van Laar: Again, we talk about generational issues and things between one generation to the next. And sometimes I do not understand. I’ve got a grandson that’s getting married this summer. I went to his apartment in Buckhead — you know Buckhead in Atlanta, GA is what we would call the “yuppie area” — and I said, “That’s my grandson. What’s he doing down here, drinking his coffee and taking his puppy to breakfast with him?” It’s a different generation. We need to understand that. When we go forward with that, it’s still that baking is such a hands-on experience. I remember watching these older bakers and just marveling at what they could do, but also wishing I could do some of what they were doing.

I’ll give you an example. I conducted an education class at a major baker. When I toured the plant, I asked the management how they control the lay time. And they were proud, they showed me their mixing area and showed me that it was impossible to cheat because they only had one dough trough and there’s no way the mixer could mix ahead. They took all the variables away. So, during the training session, I purposely did not invite any management into their portion of the class. I really wanted to get to some of the truth because they had been talking about the variables on the line and about their issues. When I asked the class how their mixer cheated to get longer breaks, they all kind of chuckled, laughed, smiled and looked over to mixer. He said, “I don’t know.” But then one lady said, “We’re not sure how he does it, but the process changes drastically when he goes to lunch. And we also know he likes to take long lunches.” We know that people are going to tend to take shortcuts. They’re going to tend to do what they think they should do rather than what they’ve been trained to do.

But to talk about job satisfaction, I also taught a course on July 5th and 6th. Anybody that’s worked in a plant knows that you have to work the day after a holiday to get paid for the holiday. So, when we first started, I went around the room, we all introduced each other, and this seasoned lady with 25 years of experience just looked at me and said, “I don’t want to be here. The only reason I’m here is I don’t get my holiday pay if I’m not here today. I don’t want to be here,” and sat there with their arms folded. And I thought, “Great! I don’t want to be here either, if that’s the way you’re going to be about it.”

We went around the room introduced and there were several new people with less than a year because they were ramping back up. Before we went to break, the lady said, “Can I say something?” And I said, “Well, certainly, you know, you’ve been pretty vocal so far. I figured it was, ‘Sayonara, chief, I’m outta here.’” But no, she said, “Hey, I’m glad I came.” Wow. That’s incredible to see. At the end of the second day, she had started working with a young new employee. I heard her tell him, “I’m going to make you a baker.”

Spencer: Wow.

Van Laar: This is a lady who, in 48 hours, went from hating to be there to encouraging someone, to mentoring someone into the system. Don’t tell me that it doesn’t help to get people excited about their jobs.

Spencer: Oh, it absolutely helps.

Van Laar: It wasn’t my education that did it. All I did was read from the script. It was just the people getting exciting about what they do.

Spencer: Absolutely. When I first came into the commercial baking industry, I had a colleague, a coworker, who introduced me to people in the industry. She’d pat me on the back and say, “We’re going to get flour running through her veins very soon.” It means a lot to have someone who is interested and cares in teaching you about what goes into making these products, that it’s not just widgets on a line.

Van Laar: And we’re never going to eliminate that need for the human touch, so the more they know about that, the more they can look across the room like the old timers would say, “That dough won’t run.” You know, the more they can just look at it or touch it. Interestingly enough, one of the most fun things I think in those classes is to talk about elasticity. You can kind of figure out what that word means, but nobody uses it in their everyday vocabulary. When we talked about the plasticity of dough — especially in cracker doughs — the next day, one of the people came back and said, “I explained to my family all about elasticity. I made a pizza last night just to show them what elasticity is all about.” You can’t wish for anything more than that. Give them a little bit of knowledge, and they really turn it into something special.

Spencer: So that brings me to my next question. They call them, “doughheads,” those veteran bakers who can look at a dough or touch it or just use their senses to understand not only that there’s a problem but also what the problem is and how to fix it. Those are also the bakers who know there’s something wrong with the equipment because it sounds a little bit off. How can they teach that to the new generation of bakers? How can they teach them to use their senses like that?

Van Laar: It’s difficult because that is something that’s hard to capture in a video or in a book, but we need to find ways to focus on that more. An example of that may be in a flour. We measure certain quality parameters when we get a load of flour in. QA takes measurements, they do lots of different things to that. And then what I’ve found over the years is they typically take all that information, they put it in a file in the back office, and that’s where it stays unless someone asks for it. Why don’t we hook them up with the production people and say, “Hey, there’s a change in the protein, in this flour, just a little bit”? To go back to Dr. Hashmi’s comments about variability and flour, are we passing that onto our people so they can then see what’s happening in the finished product or in the dough? If I can associate higher protein with this reaction to the dough, I’m a lot better off, I’ve got a lot more information than I had before. Spread tests are something we did regularly. Do we pass that information onto the people in the plant? There’s nothing like touching, stretching, messing with the dough before it goes into the depositor, before it goes into processing. That’s something that has to be done to be successful.

Spencer: Do you think that it’s possible to get those young bakers — who are just coming in and want to push a button — to get them interested in that? To get them to want to have a relationship with the dough?

Van Laar: I think it is. I think there’s a way to do that; I haven’t come up with it yet. But I was once explaining the importance of education to a baker and they came back to me and said, “No, it’s a science. And it’s up to the equipment manufacturers to fix it for us. They need to make it more scientific.” And I kind of brushed that off to say, “No, that’s an excuse for not doing the training,” but I’ve since put more thought into that. I’ve wondered how our equipment suppliers can help us understand the art and the science of baking in real practice. It’s something Shawn and I talked about in the iba video that we did. But what have other industries done for that? How have they addressed it?

I had a car once that showed a fault on the computer. And when that fault showed, the car wouldn’t run very well. I never figured it out because it never occurred when I took it to the shop, obviously. But finally, the technician was able to run the code and they found out the gas cap was loose. Sometimes it would be tight, sometimes not. Now of all things, the gas cap was loose. So, what did they do to idiot-proof something like that for me? I just bought a new pickup and guess what: It has no gas cap on it. You just put the nozzle in and pump the gas. Did automotive engineers find a way to fix the problem, or did they just eliminate the source of the problem? If we look at this — and Shawn and I talked about this a little bit in the iba piece — why not show the baking curve on an oven panel that looks like a video game? Why not show what’s going on in the oven on a screen, so they can look at it the way they’re used to looking at things? Why not make it interactive that way, so it becomes something they’re used to doing? We’ve got kids that are on these computers all day long, day and night. They have friends that do that with them. Why can’t we have someone somewhere helping troubleshoot this the same way as with their games on the computers?

There’s no way to replace the actual touch and feel of the dough, but we can start to teach them, even through video. I think videos are a huge opportunity; for us to go YouTube is maybe a huge opportunity. But they need to do it over and over. And how can they share that learning with each other? I think there’s a different sense of learning. Obviously, we know that with the new generation, but how do we get that point across to them? And I’m not sure yet, but there’s a lot of things that we need to look at. A lot of bakers mourn the plight of their employees. They look to others for answers, yet they ignore that education that’s been available to them for 50 years. And sometimes I just don’t get that.

Spencer: Do you think there’s an opportunity for the young ones to teach the vets a couple of things, as far as adopting some of this technology and using it to their advantage?

Van Laar: I try to listen to those young folks and watch grandchildren and see how they learn, what they do. It’s amazing. Years ago, my grandson said, “I’ve got to do my homework.” And I said, “Where are your books?” And he just looked at me funny, like what do you mean my books? I said, “Well, how do you do homework?” You know, right there on the computer. That was so foreign to me. I couldn’t understand it, you know, but that’s their learning. That’s how they do it. I learned almost everything hands-on and watching. I didn’t like to read books. I didn’t like to do those things. I just like to get in and help. So for them, it’s a totally different learning experience. And again, I think they need to see the graphical representation of what they’re doing. So instead of, as an old-timer would grab the dough and pull it apart, perhaps now we can develop a small machine that pulls the dough and shows the elasticity, just like a video game, and they’d got to get it right. So, it’s an interesting area, where we’re going. Fifty years ago, they were talking about the same thing, Joanie. They were talking about our generation and how we were going to learn.

Spencer: Exactly. It’s a generational thing, and it’s why I really try to avoid using the word “millennial,” because it’s a new thing to put a name with the generation. I don’t think that it’s necessarily “the millennials” that are coming in and changing everything. And so it was a little jarring to hear these conversations, like, “What are we going to do about the millennials? The millennials are coming!” But really there is just a gap in the generation, and the generation before us was trying to figure out what the heck they were going to do with us. Right?

Van Laar: No question about it. And I look at that with my grandson. I, as an old person, use the term “yuppie,” as in Yuppieville. Others will call it “millennial.” Others would call it whatever it is, but I think “Here’s my grandson, all that aside.” He’s my grandson. He’s got a good job, he’s got a career. And he can think for himself. We started to talk about some of the issues today, and he looked at me kind of funny and he said, “What, Grandpa? Don’t you like it when somebody disagrees with you?” And that’s the old standard reply that these kids have, with the “Well, you don’t like when I disagree.” And I just said, “I love it when you disagree, but give me the facts, you know, discuss it with me. Don’t get emotional about it.” And he just smiled. And he said, “I agree with you.” So, I knew all was not lost with that kid when he said that. He was just testing me.

Spencer: And that’s a good thing, I think.

Van Laar: Absolutely.

Spencer: Do you think that it’s possible to have a magic combination of old-school and new-school ways to come together and carry on that art and science of baking?

Van Laar: We better find it, Joanie. We need to do it. I plan to stay active and see what I can do to help that. But it’s a combination. I believe it’s certainly a combination of understanding the science more and making more fun of the art that’s out there. Making it more real to the employees that will be doing it in the future.

Spencer: Definitely. So my last question is: What would you say is the most important aspect of the baking process, that will always remain regardless of whether it’s automated or how it’s automated? What is going to be that common thread that will never go away?

Van Laar: One word: consistency, consistency, consistency. Just like real estate is location, location, location. Every class I’ve taught, before the class is over, the mantra from all of them is: Are you saying it needs to be consistent? And my answer is always yes. We introduce enough variables into the process that we can’t afford to introduce more with the human touch. So, we need to eliminate as many of those things as we can. But variables, inconsistencies are what cause our own problems so often, just like the man that cheated when he went to break by making dough ahead of time. He found a way to do it and that affected everyone on the line. They all knew it. They all disliked it. They didn’t like to go back and change all the settings. But they also knew they couldn’t do anything about it because that’s what he was doing. If they made it more consistent through the process, everybody’s life would be easier.

Spencer: Right. I’m glad you mentioned that because the next week we are going to take an in-depth look at that and talk about troubleshooting the baking curve and managing those variables beyond the oven. And I love what we call it: “achieving what you can’t see.” That sounds a little bit cryptic, but I think there’s a lot to learn, so I’m really looking forward to next week’s conversation. Dave, this has been really helpful. I know it’s one of your favorite topics to discuss the knowledge transfer and you have so much to offer. And I really appreciate your time in talking about what we can do to carry this amazing industry into the future.

Van Laar: It’s fun! I want to help people have fun doing it.

Spencer: And just a reminder that if any of our listeners have any questions for Dave, our final episode is going to be Dave answering those listener questions. So you can submit your question to info@avantfoodmedia.com. Dave, I will talk to you next week.