Welcome to the sixth season of the Troubleshooting Innovation podcast. Joanie Spencer, editor-in-chief for Commercial Baking, visits with various members of the team at New Haven, CT-based Chabaso Bakery. Hear about their journey to becoming a Certified B Corporation and building a business as a force for good. Sponsored by JLS Automation.

In this first episode, you’ll meet Charles Negaro, Jr., CEO of Chabaso Bakery, as we delve into Chabaso’s values and practices.

Learn more about this season here, and listen to Troubleshooting Innovation on Apple, Spotify, Google and Stitcher.

Joanie Spencer: Hi, Charles! Well, can I call you Charlie?

Charlie Negaro: Yes, please do.

Spencer: How are you, Charlie?

Negaro: I’m good, Joanie! How are you doing?

Spencer: I am great. Thank you so much for joining me for this season of our podcast. I’m really excited to take our listeners through this journey.

Negaro: Well, thanks for having us. We’re really excited to talk about it.

Spencer: I think the first thing we need to do is talk about what a B Corp is. I just have a quick little definition, Certified B Corporations are for profit businesses that have met the highest standards of verified social and environmental performance, public transparency and legal accountability to balance profit and purpose. They’re certified through B Lab, which is the governing body of B Corp certification. Before we really get into how you became B Corp certified, I want to take this episode to get to know you and your bakery. Because the truth is, and correct me if I’m wrong, but a company doesn’t just wake up one morning and decide to become a B Corp certified company and then figure out how to make it happen from there, right?

Negaro: Yeah, totally. It’s been kind of a 15 year process for us.

Spencer: Exactly. The first thing I want to do is take a look back at the history of Chabaso’s core values and practices to see how you were operating with these values that align with B corps. Then see how the certification process flowed from there. Let’s take a step way back in history and talk about how Chabaso Bakery was born from Atticus, and how it has grown into the company it is today.

Negaro: Sure, totally. My dad started this business or businesses in 1975. My dad was a lawyer, who there are probably many people who are more mismatched for that profession than there are my father. It took him I think most of his adult life to figure out that he was really an entrepreneur. And he ended up buying a used bookstore for basically the price of like the inventory that was going out of business. And it was called Atticus. The name Atticus actually comes from the first publisher, first Greek publisher that published the works of Cicero. It’s actually not Atticus Finch, first fun fact. And the the used book business was a great thing to be in, in the 70s and early 80s, used books, not even new books. And in 1981, they opened a Bookstore Cafe in downtown New Haven, inside the British Art Center, which is a Yale building. And that was the first building in downtown New Haven that kind of started to transform the city. It’s also a concrete box. It’s a museum, so it doesn’t have any kind of fit outs for like baked goods or kitchen, no hoods. So to make this thing possible, we always had to have this like little off site kitchen that was staffed with Yale art students or spouses or partners of Yale students or Yale professors. We’ve relied on this creative energy of all these people. And that really was this foundation for Atticus. And then that turned into Chabaso in about 1996. Because we were baking bread for our retail stores and my dad had the idea of wholesaling it. Chabaso is the combination of the names of me and my two sisters, it’s Charlie, Abby and Sophia.

Spencer: Love that.

Negaro: Yes, still remember this day in 1990 something, where we sat in our kitchen and my dad said, “I want to name this after my three kids.” We all figured out the name and it all just kind of came together. It was a fun little collaborative family moment.

Spencer: That was so awesome. And, I did always assume that that Atticus was named after Atticus Finch. Already I’ve learned something right out of the gate.

Negaro: Yeah, we’ll come up with t shirts or something.

Spencer: You should have it says Atticus, not as an Finch.

Spencer: So Charlie, you have a lifelong experience in this family business with both Atticus and Chabaso. I met you a few years ago. And I remember when I visited Chabaso, at that time, your main involvement, I think you were the owner of Atticus. The day I met you, you were doing some R&D and tinkering around with some Atticus bread in Chabaso Bakery. I remember there was this little mini R&D space inside of the plant. From a baking standpoint, how did you get involved in the business? And how have you kind of grown that because I think you have a really interesting story to tell.

Negaro: Yeah, it’s like, there’s this giant rubber band attached to me. As hard as I’ve tried to run away from the family business and New Haven, the further I’ve gone, the harder it snaps me back. My sisters love to remind me of that. I had done summers making bread. And even now it’s hard, but like back then it was like really hard. I kind of liked the flow that comes with doing something hard all day. But it took me a long time to actually fall in love with bread, probably because I grew up with it. I started working in the family business in 2006, I did the Chabaso thing from 2006 to 2016. from production to COO. I had this experience of going to the bread lab out in Washington. I remember kind of going out there with this thought in the back of my mind of like you can’t change the world by baking bread. Then seeing all these people out there who are like actively changing the world by baking bread, I think the first kind of like a moment you could call an epiphany was like actually standing in a wheat field. And never having done that even though going through like 25,000 pounds of white flour a day. I didn’t even know what the wheat plant looked like or what milling was. That kind of shocked me a bit. And that, among other things led me to think back to all these wonderful things that I grew up with that Atticus, that all the creative energy was producing. And that had all kind of gone away and spent three or four years from 2016 to 2019. Just working over at Atticus just the retail store in New Haven and had the opportunity to try to kind of bring that stuff back while layering in this newfangled idea of fresh milling specialty grains and maybe even trying to grow them in Connecticut. Then in 2019, I had the opportunity to start to run both of those businesses. I think that’s probably right when we met each other, which seems like yesterday and 10 years ago.

Spencer: I just love that story. I’m glad you talked about your experience in the bread lab, because I knew that was a pivotal moment for you. I remember you telling me that story. I think it’s really important to put it into context with how Chabaso makes bread and goes to market. So this bakery, Chabaso started with this mission to make good bread in a town that’s known not only for its intellectual culture, with Yale, but also food culture. How did that lay a foundation for the principles of quality bread that you still live by today?

Negaro: Yeah, we always get the question, because New Haven is famous for pizza. And to some degree Lenders Bagels started in and around New Haven.

Spencer: Yeah, that’s right.

Negaro: And I grew up eating Lender’s Bagels, and everybody asks us, is there something special in the water that makes New Haven pizza, “New Haven pizza”. I think that’s like part of the background. And New Haven is very fortunate that it has Yale in the backyard. The amount of different people from different backgrounds and different cultures and countries that it brings here. It is a melting pot.

Spencer: I feel like being located in a highly intellectual community has to sort of help feed your desire to create something that’s a little bit more complex than just were making loaves of bread and selling it. There’s just sort of higher standards in the area of where you are. Do you feel like just from a culture standpoint, it helps your perspective in how you want to change the world by making bread?

Negaro: Wow, that’s a great question. Yeah, there’s definitely like when you have other people around you doing incredible things. It raises the bar significantly, when you go to school with people who are children of relative geniuses, it raises the bar quite a bit. And then there’s just an expectation of when you have a multicultural, extremely international group of customers, like people move here from San Francisco and live here and they expect a certain thing. I think there’s a lot of incredible creative influences. And then just an expectation.

Spencer: Yeah. I mean what you’re making is definitely artisan bread. But the definition of artisan and can be highly subjective. And my visit to Chabaso was one of my first lessons. I remember the story I wrote, and I think I even opened it with “Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and artisan is in the eye of the breadmaker.” Because there are so many factors that go into what makes an artisan loaf. For Chabaso, one of those factors is the people and the principles behind your bread making process. How do those support your definition of artisan bread?

Negaro: Yeah, totally. We’ve had to come up with our definition of that, for a buyer or somebody, when we’re getting a tour or trying to do that whole, “this is why this is worth this amount of money, like this is the value in this” sales pitch. We’ve had to define artisan and some simple words. But like you’re mentioning, it’s not simple. On the manufacturing side, it’s the differentiation between like the time and temperature between what we do and what you call kind of like a no time dough. We’re using a lot of prefermented doughs, we have long bulk fermentation times. And that’s very challenging, in terms of getting extremely high throughput, finding machines that work with this process. Since the beginning in the 90s, putting in machines, for some level of automation has always been, like this kind of works, so let’s put this thing together with this thing. And you have enjoy that process. And then the day to day operations of it, and how it interacts with the staff is just everything. If your team doesn’t understand that every day, things are gonna be a little different. And the desired outcome is collectively making something that’s special, it’s just not going to work. They have to get that this thing is a challenge. And there’s some creativity involved. But it’s also a very well defined process. And to get your team really believing that you have to value them and respect them. And this might sound kind of like, “duh”, but you really have to listen to them. It can’t just be this is how we do things. That fundamental collaborative approach starts so many conversations between you, as a leader or any leader in the organization and the team that it creates a culture. I guess, in some part, probably, when we first heard about B corps, 15 years ago, it was like, “Oh, this makes a lot of sense.”

Spencer: I loved your transition from automation to how the people are still important in your in an automated process. So you’re doing it a very specific way. And you’re doing it the same every time and an artisan bread, like you have to have certain parameters for the process to get the finish love the way it’s supposed to be. But what are some of those times where you’ve been able to sort of brainstorm with the staff and give them a voice of I think we could do it better if we did it this way.

Negaro: Yeah. The funny part is, they come up with those things on their own. You just kind of have to stand there and watch how they’re doing something. And go, “Oh, how did you think of that?” Show me what you’re in a very unaccusatory way, which is really tough. It’s like, “Why are you doing it that way?” They’re like, “Because it works better.” It’s like, okay, but please tell me more. So I can like make sure everybody does it that way. The days where it comes out perfect, are almost worse than the days where it doesn’t come out. Because you’re like, “Wait, what did we do, right?” Because when you do it wrong, it’s real obvious. And we know what we did wrong. Like we forgot salt, we forgot yeast, we over proofed i. It was 85 degrees in the room today, the air conditioning failed. The points of failure are so much easier to identify than the points of success because perfection is the common I have like 10 different things going right at the same time. So those things come from your staff doing something on the line, or with a mixer or with an oven that you never would have thought of.

Spencer: I really saw that when I walked the plant floor. Those years ago, there is this element of collaboration in your bakery. I think that’s why Chabaso’s story is about way more than just the bread, and how it’s made and who it feeds. I’m going to kind of shift gears here for a second. Your dad, I remember, he told me a story. He told me lots of stories. That’s one of the greatest things about your dad. But he has always believed in doing good beyond just making good bread. And he’s always seen purpose in the breadmaking. And he told me that if he had three wishes for making the world better, one of them would be to have healthier kids. And to start that with how they’re fed. I feel like that’s sort of a defining element of Chabaso as a bread manufacturer. I think that is not a typical of bread manufacturers, because I think there are a lot of them who feel that way. But I think it’s very different than what a consumer would assume a company that makes bread in a factory, they would not assume that a company would feel that way. Can you tell me how it’s been that defining element as a manufacturer?

Negaro: Yeah, yeah. So my, my dad is, he started this business when he was 50, the bakery business. So he started a lot of things late in life, including a family and his brain is always thinking about how much he can kind of affect the things around him in his community, his family and sticking around to see as much of it as possible. So he’s always like I’m going to live for another 30 years. From the very beginning, we were really focused on like, not bringing in the wrong ingredients, you know, process of like, bringing in enzymes, like 10 years ago was like, “What are these? Do we want to do this? Does this change who we are?” Meaning like the business debated it. There’s these things that you’re actually kind of making me think about for the first time in a long time that were very foundational and who we are, and those enormous experiences, affected our day to day, and started to then turn into other projects and ideas my dad had for the community in the bakery. And my mom’s starting a garden out back where she just planted like 20 by 40 feet of tomatoes, and to deal with those consequences. That started New Haven farms, which ended up being a diabetes prevention program in cahoots with a local health clinic that would prescribe a share from the farm. Which was much more than our backyard at that point. And part of the prescription from the primary care physician would be you get vegetables every week, we’ll teach you how to cook. I remember, a local chef was like this is a kohlrabi … here’s how to cook it. And you had to show up you had to do some work on the farm, which was just a urban little thing. And you had to kind of get schooled on nutrition. Those little initiatives that my dad started turned into a lot of different things in around New Haven.

Spencer: Wow, the thing that’s so cool is that it wasn’t just your dad living out his values it has translated into the business and it’s grown. And it’s become something very organic, that now you are carrying on. Now I kind of want to shift the focus back to you, Charlie, you talked about that first time you stood in a wheat field and the impact that it had on you and how you’ve carried that through your passion for breadmaking. And now you’re pretty involved in local state and regional agriculture. Can you kind of talk about your journey, and how breadmaking is running much deeper than the production process from an agricultural standpoint and a community standpoint?

Negaro: Yeah, I know you asked about me, but to have a bakery, making bread successfully and profitably and also be mission driven is the job of many, many people. You know, without people like Reed and our VP of operations and supply chain Rich, and many, many others, it just isn’t possible. You can’t run a bakery with all that’s involved in that and kind of be off galavanting and wheatfields. And be like, look how amazing that is, it tastes so good. And I am like I am trying to make a truckload of bread right now. So it’s a work of so many to take that believe in it and carry it forward. It’s also a very interesting kind of journey and process to go from, like an operating role to a CEO role where you’re going from, that operating of a manufacturing plant to a here’s who we are, here’s what we do, here’s why we do it. And it’s fun and interesting shift that is super challenging. And again, impossible without the right people. The first thing that started me really down the path of growing interesting grains really clicked with me and with us was to actually taste better. That we are leaving, not just flavor on the table, but no pun intended, but leaving nutrition, and so many more aspects of things that we can be including in our food. Unfortunately, I am a lot like my father, so I tell a lot of stories. But there’s this moment after coming back from one of the trips from Bread Lab, and having gone with him to like a barley field and learning what barley was and learning what malt was. And that just the malt industry is just very singular and what it produces. And someone made this like specialty malts and put it in vanilla ice cream, and it tasted like all sorts of different things. And like, Wait, did you put pineapple on this? Like, nope, that’s the malt site. Okay, cool. So we’re definitely screwing up, we’re missing something. Why are we as a society, like accepting these flavors that people are giving us that just like aren’t that great? That’s really what gave us the mental support, confidence to come back and say, “Okay, we’re going to try to grow grains, especially grains in Connecticut and see how it goes.”

Spencer: And how is it going?

Negaro: It’s really hard. So this was like a prepandemic project that started, failed a couple times and then restarted. And the wonderful thing that we’ve experienced in the last five years of working together, Reed and I is we start these little projects. And someone usually goes, that’s a great idea. I’m gonna go do it. If we ended up being the instigator of one good thing for more than happy with it. Right before the pandemic in October of 2019. We did our own little bread thing out at Yale, called Brain Gab. It brought together a whole bunch of people. Again, Reed did all the work. And out of that someone else carried the torch and has started like a Northeast Grain Alliance. They had a mill they had a malt house that’s been growing. And if we had a tiny part in playing in, I would say incubating that but pushing it or nudging it along, we’re extremely happy to have that happen. We’d love for someone in Connecticut to start a mill so that we can continue it. Part of the process also with us with growing wheat in Connecticut was, Connecticut actually has a lot of farmland, and the primary output of that is actually flowers. Right behind that is feed corn for cattle that makes commodity dairy. If you’ve ever known a dairy farmer, you’ve known that they probably work 70 hours a week don’t get paid a lot of money and die young. There’s lots of farmers out there that are dying for something other than what they’re currently doing. They don’t know what to do and they’re relatively risk adverse because they’re right on the edge anyways, it worked pretty well for us. What we have learned is we really want to help support people who are already doing something and that’s where CT Food Launchpad has kind of come in.

Spencer: Let’s talk about that. I mean, I think the work you did with the Connecticut farming was sort of prepandemic but then CT Food Launchpad came after the pandemic right?

Negaro: Yeah, it happened when we went to go open our second retail location and then I give my dad like a lot flack for having like 42 ideas before breakfast. In retrospect, it’s like “Wow, I should probably stop making fun of him.”

Spencer: That’s why I’m sitting here giggling.

Negaro: Yeah, right before like March of 2020, we signed a lease for a second Atticus, in New Haven, it of itself was a crazy idea. But it meant that we had about like eight months to kind of like figure out what the heck we were gonna do with this 2500 square feet. And we’d been talking to the city in New Haven and the state of Connecticut. And they were they still are and very supportive of incubating food businesses and startups. One of the very popular ways to do that is a shared kitchen, or kitchen spaces that people can rent for a food truck or a small food business. And we thought, we’ll go and do that, we’ll make that part of this 2500 square foot, we’re also going to put a bakery in, we’re going to have like a big commercial kitchen and a grocery store. And we’re going to sell stuff, and we’re going to do coffee and so on. We needed to kind of evolve that idea. That pretty quickly flipped over to instead of renting our space to other people, we will help folks make something and get it to market and sell it for them. We started to make baked goods for sanctuary kitchen is a nonprofit in New Haven that helps refugee and immigrant women who cooked at home get a job now that they’ve landed in a new life.

Spencer: Wow.

Negaro: Yeah. They do that through catering. It’s a great model, it makes a lot of sense. We started making a bake good for them selling in our retail locations, and then giving them a percentage of those sales. So all they have to do is come and show us recipe, we’ll scale it up for them and make that happen. We’re like, this checks a lot of boxes, we don’t have to really do anything new. We’re just using our existing staff. We don’t have to, like manage outside groups. And that worked. Not hugely impactful, it’s not like all of a sudden you’re selling significant quantities of this to fund a profit. And then throughout this, we had other people coming to us and saying like, can you help me make not baked good? Like, can you’ve helped me copacker for a hot sauce? I’m like sure we’ll try. After that it evolved into, so there’s people who have market ready products that they’re selling at a farmers market, or through an online store or through their kitchen, and they want to take it to the next step. They want to take it to Whole Foods, they want to take it to another retailer. This is what we do all the time, we go to retailers and say like, here’s our stuff. Let’s do this. Having talked to these startups remembered that process of like, these are very different skill sets that you need to be developing as a person in your kitchen. It’s like you have to learn how to make this stuff. You need to learn how to package the stuff, you need to learn how to sell it and do accounting and do a business plan and then you need to learn how to like, go to a retailer and distribute it, sell it, make it and make it food safe. That’s something that we do all the time. So let’s try to help local businesses do that. They don’t have to learn it. Why have 10 local food startups go and learn this thing, when we already know how to do it, and we can just they can focus on what they do best. Make this really special hot sauce. That’s what CT foods Launchpad is now it seems like it’s that’s what it’s going to be for a while. Again, Reed has helped, there’s a Ghanaian hot sauce called Shito that with our help has gone through with two retailers and is now carried in Stop and Shop.

Spencer: This concept is amazing and that you’ve turned that space sort of into a training and education facility for startup food brands. Right?

Negaro: Yeah, this space is virtual, it’s Reed and I. Coaching might be a little self aggrandizing but act of listening to folks go through the things that we’ve gone through and telling them that it’s going to be okay, when they’re struggling with a growing business, and probably accidentally it has worked out perfectly because our new location is also a little micro grocery store. If I had my druthers, I would spend all day long shopping for small cool food items and merchandising them on our shelves. It fits perfectly with you know, identifying emerging products that we think we can help grow. It’s stuff that we sell that we believe in and then we can take to other people and hopefully help them expand.

Spencer: That’s amazing. And there is such an explosion of emerging brands right now. The space can get a little bit crowded for new brands. And so many of them, like you said, they don’t know sort of what they don’t know and need help getting kick started. I love Launchpad, it is such a perfect name. What a cool point of evolution for your company. Because when I looked at the CT Food Launchpad website, it does say that it’s powered by Atticus and Chabaso. It seems like you’re using both companies for good as you typically do.

Negaro: Yeah. And it’s, you know, it’s like, you have to find things that you find are fulfilling for you, and for other people to really believe in them and make them part of your culture and make them stick. We’ve never been the best at putting like a sentence or two around, like”Who are we? What do we do? Why do we do this?” The vision mission kind of wordsmithing sessions of yesteryear are where I always found kind of like personality tests. It’s like this is gonna change tomorrow. But we’ve gotten there through our actions. And it’s also part of the reason why I loved B Corp. When I first heard about it 15 years ago at this like random seminar, I just happen to go to because it gives you the words and roadmap to make sure these things that you’re doing are clear to yourself and others and that they stick around.

Spencer: Yeah. I’ve heard that so many times. It’s kind of what we’ve started this conversation with that you don’t just wake up one day and go, “You know what, I think I want to be a B Corp. Let’s look and see what it takes to become that kind of company.” You learn about it. And then you look at that process and that checklist and realize, this is like how I’ve been living. This aligns with how my company operates. Is that how it was for you with Chabaso.

Negaro: Yeah, pretty much. I think there’s probably people who do want to utilize like the B Corp name and what it stands for, for aspirational growth, either honest, aspirational growth or non. But it really should be a tool that feels very familiar. It’s a 280 question process, where you have to go through and score a minimum of 80 points to qualify as a B Corp, even the most forward thinking companies who are already doing good, struggled to score 80. The questionnaire in and of itself is like part of the process to go, so here’s some things that I’m like, kind of doing but I need to do differently or more formally, to qualify us to get these points. You’re not going to make it through that process, the four or five times that we had to do it to get yourself to where you need to get to.

Spencer: Yeah, and you know what, that is exactly what we’re going to talk about next week, we’re going to really get into the nitty gritty of how you navigated the certification process and what exactly it took to get there. But I’ve loved this conversation, because I feel it was really important to let the audience know who you are. And just like you said, getting that certification, I mean, that questionnaire is long, and it takes a lot of self reflection, and you have to kind of already be moving in that direction. I’ve really loved just hearing this story of Chabaso and how it came to be and who you are as a company that fits into what it means to be a B Corp. And over the course of these five weeks, we’re going to look at the process to obtain certification. Then we’re going to talk about how you operationalize those values on the bakery floor. And then B Corp certification, you don’t get certified and then it’s done. You have to keep improving and get your recertification. I want to dive into plans for the future. And then finally, finish with what the secondary benefits are for being a B Corp. That’s kind of what the lay of the land is for the next few weeks. But next week, we’re going to talk about that process and bring read into the conversation to really hear those details. So I’m looking forward to that. But for now, thank you so much, Charlie for spending this time with me today.

Negaro: Well thanks, Joanie, for giving us the opportunity to talk about it. It’s been great.

Spencer: And I will talk to you next week.

Negaro: Talk to you next week.

Welcome to the fifth season of the Troubleshooting Innovation podcast. Joanie Spencer, editor-in-chief for Commercial Baking, talks with Rebecca Abel, owner of D’Vine Cookies in Taylor, MI. They’re looking at cookie production through the lens of an entrepreneur, from starting a bakery to moving into the first big facility to strategic growth into the future. Sponsored by the National Honey Board.

Our final episode explores strategic growth in the baking industry. How are business plans and capital investments changing as we head out of pandemic trends and into a new world of workforce challenges and supply chain disruptions? Abel shares how she’s pivoting, especially after learning so much at this year’s International Baking Industry Exposition.

Learn more about this season here, and listen to Troubleshooting Innovation on Apple, Spotify, Google and Stitcher.

Joanie Spencer: Hi, Rebecca. Thanks for coming back for week five!

Rebecca Abel: Hi, Joanie.

Spencer: Let’s start off with D’Vine’s growth. It’s really happening at a pivotal time in our industry. Because relatively speaking, we seem to be heading out of the pandemic, I’m going to knock on wood really quick. And bakery consumption is trending upward. The American Bakers Association just released their most recent research ‘Life Through the Lens of Bakery’. And it looks like pretty good news on the consumption front, especially with indulgence. How are you feeling about D’Vine’s spot in the cookie category right now?

Abel: I’m feeling really good about it. I think that indulgence is a category that seems to be taking off in really every regard, whether it’s desserts or luxury items. This whole luxury industry is hot, and we’re an affordable luxury. It’s something that the mainstream can afford a really indulgent cookie. I like the category and being able to use products and the types of ingredients that fall into that category, because I also enjoy luxury. If I’m going to have a cookie, I want the best cookie.

Spencer: Right. When you look at where D’Vine is right now, and doing well in the category and what your plan was when you started the business. Are you where you expected to be at this point based on your business plan? And what’s changed?

Abel: Yes. People ask me that all the time “Oh, are you surprised that you’re as big as you are at this point?” The truth is, no, because it was very intentional. My goal was only to build a really large company. In my mind, I just showed up on the scene to start the business. Everything I’ve done up to this point was just getting ready to start. This is the first year and now that I’m in a facility big enough, I’m just showing up as a company that is looking to grow. Our plan is to start from here. And again, to me, this is just the start. And to launch and to over the next several years to grow and to be a nationally known brand. That’s where I saw things and intended to be though before I even started the company is to be a company that was known like Godiva Chocolate or Haaagun Daz, or one of these really main dessert players in the market that people go to for an indulgence in that category.

Spencer: I feel like the years leading up to where you are right now were almost pre-startup. And now it’s startup.

Abel: Absolutely, yes. I’m an ambitious person. It was all about learning and getting ready to be right where I am right now. To enter the field of a potential company in this sector.

Spencer: Right. You are like moving along, according to your business plan. When you’re looking ahead, have you had to change your business plan at all based on what it’s taken to get here? Or are you just still right on track and you’re moving along as you had originally planned?

Abel: Well, of course, I’ve had to make a lot of little pivots. I didn’t know that my growth was going to come from contract manufacturing or private label, because I didn’t realize it was such a big part of the industry. It’s not that I’ve changed my plan. It’s just that I’ve added learning what’s out there as additional ways that I can grow. Things are a daily pivot. As I try certain products in certain ways of selling my products, I have realized it’s a learning curve of: what do we like, what are we good at, what are we not good at and what does our facility not work well with? It’s even facility specific. We have X amount of storage. Can we do this type of product that requires this much more storage than we have? Well, no. Let’s pivot to other less storage and heavy type of product. It’s daily, small pivots in a bigger game plan.

Spencer: One thing that happened this year was that you got connected with an industry veteran, Dave Van Laar.He was able to work with you just in time for IBIE. I’m interested to hear how his help and consulting guided you with your operation. And how that helped you going into IBIE, and navigating IBIE? Because I do feel like the growth and timing in your company was really great to go into such a huge trade show, where you’re going to see all the equipment and all the ingredients suppliers in one place, and have really important conversations about the future. How did Dave help lay the groundwork for your IBIE experience?

Abel: We were really fortunate to have Dave come in and help us as an interim C level employee. He’s retired, and has lots of other passions and things he’s doing in his retirement. But he agreed to come in and help us and help me specially prepare for IBIE, in looking at different potential equipment companies for our next step of scaling. He knows every company out there being a 45 year veteran, he has relationships with every company. He was able to make some really strategic introductions for us and helped me feel less overwhelmed in that sea of lots of great companies. But not all companies that are going to be the right fit for what we need next. It was extremely overwhelming even to just be there with him. HE was showing me “Okay, let’s talk to these 10 different companies.” It was still a lot.

Spencer: Yeah.

Abel: But it was really helpful. We did narrow it down to a few potential companies that we’re going to work with for our next steps in automation that are the right fit for the next year or two of what our needs are.

Spencer: Because you do have plans right now to install a new line, right?

Abel: Yeah, we do have plans to install another line. Right now we’re at three lines. We’re looking to have a fourth and fifth line that we get up and running over the next year.

Spencer: Okay. Wow, that’s so exciting. And like I said, perfect timing in an IBIE year to be experiencing this growth and then be able to sort of go shopping at the show. That was your first IBIE, correct?

Abel: It was, I’ve been hearing about IBIE for the last two and a half years that it is up and coming. But I started in the industry, and was still a little new. I wasn’t quite automated three years ago, so it wasn’t the right fit for me to be stepping into that type of trade show. I would have been completely overwhelmed.

Spencer: Right. So what did you think of your experience?

Abel: It was amazing. I mean, it was overwhelming. But I still have so much that I’m downloading in my mind, from things that I saw and haven’t had a chance yet to even do a follow up from the show. With all of the great people that I met. I did get to go on a tour, I met somebody locally that has an extract company. And we’ve already gone into his facility and found a new ingredient partner. That was amazing to just meet some additional mentors and connections in the Michigan area. But a lot of the equipment that we looked at and we’re considering is out of the state or out of the country. So just making some preliminary plans at this point, to figure out what is the next step we’re going to take in looking at that piece of equipment?

Spencer: Yeah, I actually talked to a baker once who said, “I thought I had everything set and I knew what my next line was going to be. But apparently now I am buying a plane ticket over to Europe to look at some more equipment.”

Abel: Yeah. Well that’s where a lot of the equipment seems to be. So that is on our plan for the next six months. To go over and see a couple of great companies in Europe that we really want to see what they have in action.

Spencer: Okay, I was going to ask what were your main areas of focus in terms of where you plan for your next capital investments to be.

Abel: We’re looking on the depositing front. I mean, we’ve had great success with our V mags and have been really happy. We’ll continue using those but now we’re looking for more multi-lane depositing. and what’s going to be the next step on that front. But we want to look at all of our options and figure out what is our next best piece of equipment so that we’re not At depositing one cookie at a time anymore. We’re ready for multihead.

Spencer: Right. I think the next few questions, I do want to kind of focus more on that IBIE experience. What you saw on the show floor from all the exhibitors that you visited. How did that match up with your expectations for the show and what your current operational needs are and what you’re planning for in the future?

Abel: Well, it was much bigger than you could ever imagine. When I thought that I was through the show and then seen so many companies, I realized there was another whole hall. So it definitely exceeded my expectations. Although it was more overwhelming than I anticipated. But there were a lot of things that I didn’t know that I didn’t know that I left there, realizing, “Wow, things exist, that I had no idea that even existed”. With all the innovation out there in the industry, it’s really exciting to see what is available and what’s coming in the future and automation. I think that it’s the focus on these manufacturers to realize more and more that we really have opportunities to automate almost everything we do.

Spencer: Yeah, that’s true. And we are actually we just dropped our December Special Edition. It’s our Innovations Annual where we take a look at some of the top innovations from the year from suppliers. And it is incredible the level of automation. I mean, I couldn’t write just a story on automation, because it would be a book. Like you said, you can automate everything. Do you feel like it changed your view of how you want your operation to be in the future? Or did it change your plans for how you want your operation to be for the future?

Abel: Well, seeing the potential machines and things that were there that I had no idea that even existed, it did open my eyes. It showed me that we could be completely automated at some point with just some really great people running some great machines and taking out a lot of the really mundane tasks, such as stickering boxes, pallet stacking and just things that can save people’s backs from all this lifting. So it did change my view as to what I think things will look like a few years down the line when we can really afford all the automation that we’d like. It’s exciting, though, because I love seeing what people are coming up with to help our issues in the industry with labor. And like I said, saving people’s backs from a lot of the heavy lifting of what this job can be.

Spencer: Yeah! And we just did a story on diversity, equity and inclusion through the lens of operations and equipment, and how automation can support DEI, in terms of creating opportunities for people who wouldn’t be able to do certain jobs because of physical limitations. And so automation supports efficiency. And it gives you a great ROI, but also can really change how you look at your workforce.

Abel: Absolutely.

Spencer: So the things that you learned at IBIE, did it impact your timeline and plans for growth or for when you want to start incorporating more automation into the operation?

Abel: I wouldn’t say it impacted it. It made me excited about what is potential. But there were additional things that we want to add to our automation lineup. And, we have to be very strategic as to what comes first. And so what it did was really add to that lineup of things that are on our wish list. Yeah, you know, nothing’s going to happen overnight. So there’s just more that we want. It was being like a kid in a candy store that yeah, this machine will solve this problem. And this machine will solve this problem. And it was exciting, because there’s a lot of great solutions to daily problems we have, but we have to pace ourselves. We wish we could have it all in place overnight. But a lot of these pieces of equipment have 12 to 18 month lead times. So it’s not coming overnight, but it adds to our wish list.

Spencer: Yeah. And then there’s the lead time, that is kind of a nightmare. Did you experience that at all? Like, oh, my gosh, there’s the machine that I need for the next line. It’s not going to be installed for two more years. Did you have any sort of shock on the timeline and turnaround for installation?

Abel: Yes, because I would call it our dream machine is that at least a 12 month lead time from the time that we get it all dialed in to be exactly what we want. But the challenge is, we really need that next line in the next six months. So we are having to figure out we need an interim step machine to then have our dream machine in place, probably 18 months from now. I wish it was faster and easier, but it’s something that we just have to accept. That’s part of this market. And they’re frustrated because these equipment suppliers, I’m sure they would love to be able to deliver something and get paid for it before, a year and a half out. But it’s just the reality that in and out of this country, we’re all struggling with people to make the equipment.

Spencer: Right. I did a series on the supply chain disruption in 2021, as it was unfolding, and talked to several equipment manufacturers and ingredient suppliers. Those conversations, I never left feeling happy. It felt very hopeless.

Abel: It’s frustrating, but I think it’s hitting the equipment industry more than any other industry.

Spencer: Yeah.

Abel: Even a fridge, a personal fridge that I ordered in March of this year, just a regular refrigerator has a 12 month lead time. For dealing with that with a refrigerator and these really complex custom built machines. Yeah, I mean, I guess I should be lucky that it’s only 18 months.

Spencer: Yeah. Absolutely.

Spencer: This season of Troubleshooting Innovation is sponsored by the National Honey Board. Honey truly is Mother Nature’s sweetener, from the beehive to your bakery food. It comes from every corner of the world and provides a sense of time and place. It’s flavorful, functional and composed of a complex mix of carbohydrates, acids, minerals, antioxidants, vitamins and prebiotics. And while honeybees are making honey, they’re also pollinating more than 35% of the foods we eat, learn more at www.honey.com.

Spencer: So what about innovation on the ingredient side that you saw at the show? Did your IBIE experience have any impact on product development and R&D? And I guess looking at the machines as well, did that impact like, “I could make these types of cookies, or this is something that I want to put on the docket for the future?”

Abel: Yes. That’s really my favorite thing to look at is, what’s available on the ingredient side, and finding cool and fun ingredients that we can then incorporate news. There were a few things that I saw that really wowed me that I’m now getting samples and doing some preliminary testing not even for cookies next year, but this is now into 2024. I’m just thinking like, how can I use this? And will this work in the future automated equipment that I’m going to have 18 months from now. It’s the most exciting thing about what I do is looking at what’s out there and creating things from it. There are just such great companies out there innovating in the ingredients space as well as the equipment. And I was pleasantly surprised with how many ingredient companies were at the show. Because I went in thinking it was going to be mostly technology.

Spencer: No, it’s definitely a well rounded show. It’s every aspect of the bakery process.

Abel: Definitely is. I was very surprised. They covered everything.

Spencer: Did you feel like you have any moments where you were like, “Yes, this is why I got into this?” Because as you were describing your favorite part and being the R&D, it just took me back four weeks ago to our first conversation about why you got into this and how you were learning how to bake cookies. Did it revive that passion for you?

Abel: It did and it always does. And there were a few really exciting products and companies that I didn’t know about that got me excited about the R&D side and some products that will solve some problems that I have and making a few toppings or fillings or whatnot that we’re doing very manually that are a more turnkey solution for something that’s the quality. That is what we want. It did reinvigorate me, take me from a state of overwhelm to a state of great this is a solution and this is going to work.

Spencer: I can only imagine that it was an ebb and flow that you probably had moments where you though it’s too much to let’s to do this.

 Abel: This whole journey has been that. IBIE seems to be really social and there were all sorts of get togethers and after parties. But by the end of each showroom day I was ready for bed. Because there were highs and lows and there were things that you’d see that you’re like, “Great, this is amazing.” And then you find out “Okay, no, this is not coming for 18 months.” Or other wins that you see, “Okay, this is here and we’re ordering it next week, because this is something that we’ve been needing and having supply chain issues on.” Lots of highs and lows there. And all in all, a great experience, but a draining experience because of all the stimulation.

Spencer: So when you look to not necessarily pertaining to IBIE but just in general, looking to the future? How do you find that balance where when it comes to capital investments, finding that balance of I need to invest in this so that I can make more cookies and sell more cookies. But I have to sell more cookies in order to have the capital to invest? How do you get off of that cycle? How do you find that balance?

Abel: Well I always have to put selling more cookies before buying the equipment. Because, we don’t want to get into a position that we’ve bought equipment for cookies that we’re not selling and can’t pay for the equipment. I wish that, it was easier to just flip a switch and have the revenue immediately to afford this next line. So I prioritize finding the business to then buy the equipment. But it’s tricky, because it’s like this wish list that even the new business that we’re bringing on, that takes a long time to get in place. Contracts we’re talking and signing now don’t start some of them for nine months. It’s giving me an exercise in patience. That’s definitely something that I’ve had to learn because I wouldn’t call myself a patient person, but I’m having to be very patient in this whole process.

Spencer: I’m sure that this entire journey has been sort of a lesson in teaching yourself patients.

Abel: Definitely.

Spencer: But I do think that all of the upfront work that you did to get to the point where you are now, I wouldn’t have guessed that you are an impatient person. If I was just looking at it from a timeline perspective,

Abel: Well, I’ve learned patience in this process from the get go. In other things that I’ve done, it’s been not instant gratification, but not gratification over a five year period. In this whole startup world you have to have patience every day because things do not go according to plan. And it’s been a big area of growth for me.

Spencer: In the industry, we have a tendency to sort of look at time in three-year increments, at least from where I’m standing from the media perspective. But we look at it from in three-year increments from what changes from one IBIE cycle to the next. Where do you see D’Vine, the next time you step onto an IBIE show floor? Where do you see the company?

Abel: Fortunately and unfortunately, probably in another space. Three years from now, I think that will be just moving to our next larger space. Hopefully, in the position that we need to do that. But like I said, unfortunately, dealing with the pain of making yet another move. And I think at that point, we’ll be ready for the real big guns, equipment like the tunnel ovens and complete automated process. At least that’s my hope. Where we’re currently looking for some of these interim solutions with equipment. At that point, we’ll be looking for the permanent, we’ve arrived solutions that this is what the big companies are using.

Spencer: Do you ever envision having multiple facilities?

Abel: I do because it would be nice to not be shipping across the country, for many reasons. I do eventually think we’ll have our facility here in the Midwest, and then something on the west coast. But that’s another whole logistic and time challenge of being two different places. Daunting the idea of how hard it is to run just one facility and now getting into two. But that’s where I will definitely need a lot more help on my management team to be able to help with that.

Spencer: The last question, as you know, we were looking at the future of this company, and what your plans for D’Vine are, you’re still a young baker in this industry. It’s such a mature industry. I would say anybody less than 10 years old, is still a baby in this industry. So what’s the biggest change, the biggest wave that you think you’re going to make in this industry and then what advice would you have for a new baker coming in? And then also, what’s your advice for the established companies? Because you do have this unique perspective, what do they need to get? What are the roots that they need to get back to?

Abel: Okay.

Spencer: That’s a complicated question. There’s a lot to that question.

Abel: Well, to start out, I think the impact that I want to make in the industry is showing that you can start without having a background. That part of this journey is the process of growing and learning and the growth that I’m going through personally with this challenge. But hoping to inspire other people that they can have a dream, and really not have it all completely thought out and be completely ready for it. But just start in that direction and let it evolve, but make good decisions. So my journey is about inspiring other entrepreneurs to take risks and to start something, and to be limber and flexible in knowing that if you work hard, and you get the right guidance and make the right decisions, it can happen. So that’s the first part of that. The second part of that is what I think I can teach bigger companies that, maybe getting down to some more personalized treatment of employees, we’re taking a big company and try to make parts of it smaller, so the employees feel more engaged in the overall vision. And I’m part of a small company, so that’s comes easy to us. But I think being part of a really large company, that’s where I benefit from. Is having an environment that feels small to my employees, and that keeps them retained and part of the bigger strategies. So having one on one programs for employees to mentor and grow. I just read a great article about mentorship in the workplace. I think that is becoming more at the forefront of these bigger companies that are realizing how important that is. And how that really engages employees in the bigger picture is one on one mentorship inside of the company. So showing that is really something that can be helpful with retention is already becoming very apparent.

Spencer: And it all really boils down to the whole reason why I wanted you to be my guest the season. And that is entrepreneurship, that is what you bring. That is something that I think, is a quality that every baking company, regardless of the size, that is a quality they need to have.

Abel: Yeah, I think looking through things from the lens of an entrepreneurs is definitely a different perspective, especially comparing to how a big company might look at things. I think it’s good to look at things from both levels. It’s helpful to me to look at things through the eyes of a big company and get advice on that front to having a balance of entrepreneurship and establishment is great for all companies.

Spencer: Yeah. Well, Rebecca, I think that’s the perfect note to end this season on. Thank you so much for spending these five weeks with me. I have truly enjoyed sharing your story and walking this journey with you. It’s been amazing. Thank you so much.

Abel: Thank you for having me, Joanie. It’s been a pleasure talking to you about this. And I love what you’re doing at Commercial Baking. It’s one of my favorite things to read.

Spencer: Thank you so much. I want to give you a big hug.

Abel: Well, you guys deserve it. It’s impressive.

Spencer: Thanks again, Rebecca.

Spencer: Thank you for listening to Troubleshooting Innovation, a Commercial Baking podcast, and a special thank you to our sponsor, the National Honey Board your resource for Mother Nature’s true sweetener. For more information, visit www.honey.com

Welcome to the fifth season of the Troubleshooting Innovation podcast. Joanie Spencer, editor-in-chief for Commercial Baking, talks with Rebecca Abel, owner of D’Vine Cookies in Taylor, MI. They’re looking at cookie production through the lens of an entrepreneur, from starting a bakery to moving into the first big facility to strategic growth into the future. Sponsored by the National Honey Board.

This episode explores people development: the big issue on the radar of every bakery, big and small. Abel shares her journey with developing her own professional skills as a first-time bakery owner, while also providing training and education opportunities for her own employees along the way.

Learn more about this season here, and listen to Troubleshooting Innovation on Apple, Spotify, Google and Stitcher.

Joanie Spencer: Hi, Rebecca. Thanks for joining me again this week.

Rebecca Abel: Hello, Joanie. Thanks for having me.

Spencer: So this topic is a big one that’s on everyone’s minds, and I’m very interested to get your perspective as an entrepreneur. So first, I want to revisit the fact that you started D’Vine, with no experience running a bakery, what has been your personal journey for professional development? Not only for you, but also for building a staff?

Abel: Well, that’s a great question. And it’s really been the hardest thing that I’ve dealt with, because people is, you know, that’s the wild card that without the right people, you can’t have the right company. So I really started in the books did as much reading as I could on management and on vision and on leadership, because I’ve always been in a leadership role, but it was on much a much smaller scale. So in my other company, I have a team of two. And so when you’re just dealing with one other person, it’s a much easier situation. But here, I was coming in and started with a staff of four, and realized quickly that, you know, it’s not always simple a to have a dynamic of a group work, but be to really find the right people to do the job that you need them to do. It was a lot of trial and error, to be honest, every quarter I evaluate even still to this day, who is on my team? And are they in the right position? And are they the right fit for the company? Because if you don’t have that as a baseline, you can’t develop somebody that’s not a right fit.

Spencer: Right, exactly. So what was it like for you, trying to learn a craft and lead a company at the same time?

Abel: It was really one of the hardest things I’ve ever known. Now, it’s gotten a little less painful, because I have some after a few years now have some good solid members of my team. But it’s, it’s something that is forever difficult, because even people in their own lives, you know, can be a great fit at one point, and then they have something come up or they get distracted, or they’re just people. And so it’s always something that I have to keep my eyes on. And really, you know, I wish I wish it was easier. But it’s unfortunately not. And that’s one of the reasons we’ve really leaned into automation as much as possible so that we can have great people, but fewer of them.

Spencer: Yeah, exactly. And I think that’s what everybody’s trying to do right now. And I think you might be at a bit of an advantage because those larger companies are trying to scale back while they’re trying to increase their automation to deal with the scaling back of staff, whether it’s their choice or not, where you’re kind of coming at it from the opposite end of the spectrum, that you’re going to lean into automation to build your company without a large staff, right.

Abel: Yes, yeah, we’re trying to set it up right to be a company 10- or 20-times bigger than we are. But from right now. So the choices that we’re making with equipment and with staffing is so that we build it right from the get-go.

Spencer: So around the time you started D’Vine, we were still in the onset of that labor shortage that is now what I would call crisis level. I want to unpack that for a minute in what this labor crisis looked like from your perspective, as a small business. How did this workforce shortage, this gap, look from your perspective, as you were building something?

Abel: Well, it was something that we had no choice but to have to deal with head on. And what we found was that we might have to interview 20 people to get one person because there were so many jobs available, and fewer people than there were jobs, right? I worked with my HR manager, and we really took it as a numbers game. We could see right away that it was going to take hours and hours of phone calls and interviews. For every five people we start, one really works out. I do everything in the numbers side, so I work backwards. I said, “Okay, you’re gonna have to make 100 phone calls to get 10 interviews to get five people in the door to keep one.” So just keep that in mind. And we would figure out, “Okay, here’s how many people we need.” So those are your numbers.

Spencer: Yeah. So remind me, are you pretty much an even split between workers in the bakery and workers in office?

Abel: No, no, we have far more workers in the bakery than we have in the office. So I have four people on my management team, and then one administrative assistant. And then, at any given time, we have somewhere between 12 and 20 people in the bakery, depending on how busy we are. But we definitely have a small admin staff. But that’s where we’ve really dialed in. And my HR manager has been with me for four years now. And she’s learned with me that here’s how we’re doing this.

Spencer: You’re so lucky to have a dedicated and loyal HR person, I feel like HR has got to be one of the hardest jobs these days with everything that’s going on with labor. I asked about what the split was because pre-pandemic, it was really, really hard to find workers for the operation on the bakery plant floor, but when the pandemic hit, that’s when that sort of “life’s too short” mentality kicked in for a lot of people. And there was this mass exodus from every industry. So I was wondering, do you struggle with the administrative and office staff, keeping those employees as with the bakery plant workers as well?

Abel: No. I built that [management] team slowly, so now it’s a team of four and, like I said, it was a team of three just a few months ago, when we just brought on a maintenance and sanitation manager. But my employees tend to stay for a long time. And honestly, on the floor as well, I have good retention of once we found the right person, and we’ve decided they’re on our team, they don’t typically leave.

We moved to our new facility in July of this year. And that was a big, big challenge, because it was 45 minutes away from our other facility. So we did have some turnover with that move. But we have some people that have been willing to make that drive. We offer carpools, and we just did what we needed to do to keep as many people on board as possible. But it’s something that I have to show the right value proposition for these employees to want to stay and make it a place that they want to be. And fortunately, I think they’re excited about our growth and they believe in the product, so we’ve had good retention.

Spencer: Okay, that’s really exciting, because retention is a big part of this workforce crisis. And I hear it all the time. It’s not just recruitment, it’s also a retention. And so kudos to you for being able to build a loyal staff that you can keep, and especially with the move because that was on my list of questions. And I want to jump to that right now. The move to Taylor did have an impact on the workforce, so let’s talk about what it’s been like. You said that you’ve put carpooling in place, and you had some incentives to try to keep as much of the staff as you could. But a 45-minute drive in an era where people are like, “What’s in it for me?” when they look at their job opportunities … that’s a that’s a long drive. What’s it been like trying to keep those people and also rebuilding the staff?

Abel: Well, most of them came over initially, and we offered carpools and I gave some financial incentives to come over and a few of them with especially young children just realized it wasn’t gonna work to be able to still pick up their kid from school at three o’clock and be done with work at three o’clock. Right. So there was some turnover there. And fortunately, with some other partnerships, a lot of the employees went and worked for other businesses that we do work with. So it wasn’t that I you know, didn’t want to help them find other jobs but for the people that logistically it just wasn’t going to work long term. It was really nice of them, when we kind of knew going in that some of these people were just gonna come over to help us get established and to find new train some new people. And then they transitioned to employers back in the area that we were originally. Yeah. But this is where the numbers game came in, so that we needed to hire six new people. And it took hundreds of calls and interviews and startups, starting new employees to find the six that we really wanted to keep on our team. And were a good fit.

Spencer: Wow. Yeah, I was wondering what the labor market looked like in Taylor.

Abel: It’s actually a really good market, it’s the right demographic for the type of position that we’re hiring for. It’s a very industrial area, that was part of our decision to move there. Because we wanted to make sure that it there was enough population, and enough of the right labor pool to be able to run our company. So that that worked out because yes, there are a lot of potential candidates. You know, it’s not been easy, but it’s not been as difficult as it could have been in other areas.

Spencer: Sure, yeah. I can see Taylor perfectly in my mind from when I was there last year, and it is a very industrial area. So it’s good that you’ve got a good labor market, and hopefully not too much competition for the labor. I’m sure that can be kind of scary, too, when there’s a lot of manufacturing in the area and you’ve got to compete for those bodies.

Abel: And what I think is making it a little easier is that if people have a choice to manufacture a screw or a cookie, often you’re going to choose a cookie. It’s a little bit more exciting. You know, they can take home their work a little bit more readily than they could in certain types of manufacturing. So we get people at cookies.

Spencer: Good. I think I would probably choose cookies over screws too.

Abel: Yeah, although we do say, “Warning: This job may cause weight gain.”

Spencer: Haha, right! So next, I want to talk about training for your staff and for yourself. Just a few seasons ago, my dear friend Rich Berger referenced “building the plane while flying it” several times, and I can only imagine that’s how you must feel at times. What are some of your training and education strategies or opportunities that you’re taking advantage of, as you’re seeking to train yourself and to train your staff?

Abel: Well, one of the first things I did back in 2000 when I realized, okay, I’m scaling this company and I don’t have the complete know-how to do this in manufacturing, is I enrolled in the Goldman Sachs 10,000 small business program. And that was really … I would call it a mini MBA. I had a lot of business skills on the financial side, but this is where it brought it all together. And it was like a 4-month overview of everything that you need to be thinking about. That was a great training program for me, because it showed me what I didn’t know that I didn’t know. From there, I got a little deeper in some of those areas. I’m an avid reader, I’m a very self-taught type of person, so every day I was reading different things on management and on leadership, just really trying to get every nugget that I can to learn how to fly this plane. It’s complicated and it keeps evolving with every growth step we take. It’s evolved into a new company, really.

Spencer: Right. Yeah, I can totally see that.

Abel: So that’s how I’ve really dealt with myself, is trying to continuously learn and read and take programs that are available. And there’s also programs that I constantly see popping up through different organizations I’m in. But on the employee side, we do a lot of mini trainings and I try to take employees kind of one at a time under my wing and focus on training them in what I need to then let go of doing myself. It’s time consuming, and it’s frustrating because it doesn’t always happen right away that, you know. I can let go of something and train somebody and say, “Okay, now you’re dealing with this.” So it’s happening slowly, but it’s something I need to focus on. Because I have to get more and more off of my plate and train the people to take things over for me.

Spencer: That’s a hard sweet spot to hit, because you’ve got to make time to train people to take things off your plate. But there’s no time because there’s so much on your plate, right?

Abel: And that’s where it’s a fine balance between finding somebody to come in, that already is trained and knows how to do this. And the cost of that employee vs. finding somebody that you can grow and build with. So that’s where I’m at right now is with a few positions that I need to fill, trying to find, I feel like I can no longer continue to find people to build. I need to bring in some additional people that already have some know-how and skills to help me get to the next level. That’s what we’re looking at now: this next hire. I can’t build them from scratch.

Spencer: You are answering my questions before I have a chance to ask them because I did want to pick your brain on that, with your team-building strategy. Are you trying to hire senior level experienced people that you can then build a team under them? Or is it just getting bodies in the door, and then everybody kind of learns as they go, and then you build people up that way?

Abel: That’s most of what we’ve done so far. Although we had a maintenance person come in recently that had the know-how to run every machine that we have. And that’s been a beautiful thing, because that can be a very long learning curve. Yeah, but I’m at the point that it’s too challenging to take everybody on your team and train them for the job. So our next hire is somebody that we can’t necessarily afford the most senior level person, but I do need them to have more experience to be able to help me, so that I don’t have to learn it first and then train it. I need somebody coming in and saying, “Okay, here’s how we do this. Here’s how I did this in my last company. And let’s roll this out here.”

Spencer: So as you lean into automation, are you getting any help from your equipment suppliers in training on the equipment at all?

Abel: Yes, we definitely rely on our suppliers and their tech support. There’s also different programs locally. So there’s the Michigan Manufacturing Tech Center that I went to a course recently with different community organizations and different equipment suppliers kind of combining together. You know, I’m piecing things together.

Spencer: Right, right. So as you’re building the team, what does onboarding look like? What does it look like now vs. a couple of years ago? And how do you envision your onboarding changing as the operation grows?

Abel: Our onboarding is a lot more structured. We used to bring somebody in, and they would shadow and go through a couple of food safe classes. But now we finally recorded an entry video, so the first thing they watch is a half-hour video about our culture and our values and about where we’ve come from. We’re getting things together so that it’s a lot more professional when somebody comes through the door vs. saying, “Okay, somebody’s here, what do we do now?” But that’s been the effect of so many people having to come through the door before finding the right fit. It feels good to have this structure. Now, the moment somebody comes in, they go to the conference room for two hours, seeing onboarding videos and getting to know our company and what we stand for, what we do, then having all the different very specific trainings about the items that they need to know. And then they go onto the floor and have other trainings. So we have a structured program now.

Spencer: Okay. Now, you mentioned culture in the onboarding. That’s one of the first things you talk about, knowing that you’re doing a great job of retaining loyal employees. I imagine culture is a big part of that. So let’s talk about that. What is the culture at D’Vine? What is it that you’re telling your employees, “This is what we stand for”?

Abel: Well, we start out with the fact that we’re still really — in our minds — a startup, and what it means to work for our startup. Most of these employees have not worked for any type of startup environment and what it means: that we’re pivoting constantly and we’re still changing things. A lot of employees get stressed out by changes, but I help them understand that this is not something even to consider a stressor, like when we’re changing a recipe or we’re changing how we’re doing things, that’s just part of what we’re going to do every day. So if you view it to be something stressful, you’re going to be stressed. But if you view it as something like this is just part of what we do, then it can take the stress away. I want to help frame things into what they’re going to experience on the floor, and what they should see as stressful, and what they need to remove from that category altogether.

Then from there, we really try to develop our people, so our values are based on the acronym of P.E.O.P.L.E.: professionalism, excellence, optimism … We have this P.E.O.P.L.E. acronym that we go over, and we really try to live the acronym. We do training for employees, because I have a financial background. And I love entrepreneurship. This is really where this company comes from. We attract a lot of aspiring entrepreneurs as well. So I do classes, I try to do them on a monthly basis. For the employees that are interested in their own businesses, I do a class called “Side Hustle 101.”

Spencer: Nice!

Abel: I try to help employees understand if they’re thinking about their own business, or some of them have these side hustles already know how to think about scaling, because that’s really my passion: mentorship and entrepreneurship. So we try to help take our employees and make them feel a part of this bigger vision, this bigger goal, to be this really big company. We’re at baby step No. 2 of 20 in the process, but I think doing that work upfront really helps solidify their relationship with us. And that’s hopefully contributing to our retention of employees, that they feel part of something bigger, a bigger goal.

Spencer: Yeah, I mean, I have to say, I see where you’re coming from. And I feel like we have here at Avant have been very similar. We were a small business; we were a startup. And that was part of our culture, that we wanted to bring people in who were very entrepreneurial and thought it would be cool to be on the ground level of something that they could help grow. And we’ve been very successful in building our staff that way. I’m curious, as you bring people in with that entrepreneurial drive, do you get a lot of people who are like, yes, I want to help build this company into this big thing that we know it can be? Or like, I want to learn how to be an entrepreneur, because I have a vision to do this type of business, and I’m going to really learn how to be a startup by being here and participating in this? But you’re sort of training them to spread their wings and fly to do the entrepreneurial thing that they want to do.

Abel: I mean, it’s definitely a little bit of both. But we do have a lot of employees that are in that second category that are here to learn how to do this. You know, this is like I went into Michigan Bread to see, okay, this is where I want to be. I have employees that are just very honest from the get-go that start with a side hustle — a couple already in the bakery field — that they’re where I was maybe the first year and they want to see, “Oh, how am I going to do this?” And you know, hopefully, they’re not in cookies. But we had somebody making bagels and just different bakery businesses, and we’ll even go as far as letting them use our facility on the weekends to build their own businesses. Because I really want to work with that second group of people that want to learn how to build bigger and spread their wings. And that person is really committed to helping us because we’re helping them, and they view it as a learning experience. And yeah, they might leave in a few years when they’re ready. But you know, what I do tell people is don’t quit your day job for at least a few years. You can’t take an income if you’re really looking at scaling. You need this other income source before you can afford to go out on your own and take an income from the side hustle that you want to build into a bigger business. So I know that they’re going to need to be there for a few years and I want them to eventually though spread their wings. Nothing makes me happier than somebody going out and being ready to start their own business. And that has happened a few times now.

Spencer: Okay, that’s amazing. You just don’t hear about that very often, especially these days when employees are so few and far between, that you want to try to like get them in and keep them and not let them leave. So I think that’s really something special, to have a culture where you’re here to learn a craft that can be good in your life in whatever direction you want it to take.

Abel: I really want what’s best for people and I want to focus on what do these people want for themselves. I mean, that’s how I really have always led — and been led — is, what do you want for yourself and let me help you get there and show you really what it’s going to take. And if this is a place that you can learn? Great, that’s awesome.

Spencer: So I guess the only other thing that I want to ask you, Rebecca, is again, the whole thing that attracted me to having you as a guest this season is that you’re an industry newcomer. You have such a different perspective. And I feel like everything that you just said is a really fresh way at looking at how to retain talent in this market. But have you learned — and if so, what? — from the veteran bakers? I know you’ve gotten to meet some other bakers, and you’ve got your guys down the street at the Good Bread Company (formerly Michigan Bread). What have you learned from them, that you can apply to workforce retention? Are you learning any best practices about training? Hiring? I feel like you’re bringing a lot to the industry as it is. But are you getting anything from what’s established?

Abel: Yes, where I’m really learning from them is on the management side. That’s where I’ve really struggled with that balance of finding somebody with industry talent, or bringing in somebody new. For me, I have not struggled as much in finding the employees that are going to work on the floor in the operation, because I do feel like we have a decent value proposition, and maybe even a more attractive one than a much bigger company because we’re small. We’re a family and we can really offer this place where people can come and feel a part of what we’re doing. But where I’ve really sought advice from some bigger companies is how do I help myself in the jobs that I’m personally doing to be able to get something off my plate? Because it is really difficult. Everything I’m trying to do … it’s a 24/7 endeavor for me. I want to avoid completely burning out. But I need to find people that I can bring in at my level to help me with the job. And so I’ve had a lot of conversations about that type of employee. And that’s been really helpful of finding some avenues to grow and find that type of employee.

Spencer: It’s really smart that you’re looking at what the bigger companies are doing when you’re so successful as a small business and as a startup, and you plan to be something much, much bigger. You’re looking in the right direction. And that is a good segue to what next week’s topic is going to be, and that’ll be our last episode for the season. Next week, we’re going to talk about that strategic growth in your operation and what your vision is for the future of D’Vine Cookies. We’re also going to talk about your key learnings and discoveries from your trip to Vegas when you got to visit a little show called IBIE. So this week, Rebecca, that’s all I have for you. Thank you so much for sharing this incredible insight and your philosophies on how you’re developing your workforce there at D’Vine.

Abel: You’re very welcome. I love sharing.

Spencer: I will talk to you next week.

Welcome to the fifth season of the Troubleshooting Innovation podcast. Joanie Spencer, editor-in-chief for Commercial Baking, talks with Rebecca Abel, owner of D’Vine Cookies in Taylor, MI. They’re looking at cookie production through the lens of an entrepreneur, from starting a bakery to moving into the first big facility to strategic growth into the future. Sponsored by the National Honey Board.

This episode explores Abel’s experience of what it’s like to be the new kid on the industrial park block. She talks about her company’s strategies for capital investments, the support she’s received from having already well-established bakeries as her new neighbors, and beyond.

Learn more about this season here, and listen to Troubleshooting Innovation on Apple, Spotify, Google and Stitcher.

Joanie Spencer: Hi, Rebecca, thanks so much for joining me this week.

Rebecca Abel: Hi, Joanie. Thanks for having me.

Spencer: So this one is going to be kind of fun, because I met you right before a big move, so I’ve gotten to share in this excitement with you. But in the first episode, we talked about your decision to become a cookie manufacturer rather than a craft baker, despite the fact that this is a very high-end product that you’re making. I want to dive into that a little bit more. Looking back, how do you feel about that decision to become a manufacturer instead of a craft baker?

Abel: I think it was the right decision for me and what I was looking to create, and looking to have a craft cookie product. But I’m looking to build something really much bigger than me and to create a national brand here. It’s something that I could see pretty clearly two or three years into it: that manufacturing was going to be the route for me to attain this large goal.

Spencer: So a couple of weeks ago, we talked about the role that co-manufacturing plays in the business, and that right now, you’re really focusing on building that brand and having a larger presence nationally. What do you think about where you are with your co-manufacturing business? Are you going to stay that course? Are there going to be two parallel things? And how is that going to impact your growth and where you’re going in manufacturing?

Abel: Sure. Well, these contract manufacturing jobs that I took on initially to really start growing in the manufacturing space are something that I’ll maintain, and those are in themselves growing, and those companies are scaling as well. So I plan on continuing with those, but that’s not an area that I’m looking to grow my business. I’m not looking to bring in more clients in that space. Instead, all my growth is focused on my own brand at this point. But the two can be parallel. D’Vine will continue to grow and be a larger percentage of our business over the next few years.

Spencer: Okay, you know, I talked to a baker once who runs a very large company, and she mentioned something about how she loves and respects some of the aspects of the company that got them to where they are. But she has to know when to recognize that those aren’t the things that are going to take the company into the future. And I feel like there’s a little bit of parallel there.

Abel: Totally. Yeah, I think that’s very important for us. These contracts have helped us get to where we are, so we want to continue working with them. We wouldn’t be where we are without the contract manufacturing jobs that we took on initially.

Spencer: Right. So the next thing I want to talk about is how you took a big step recently — and I mentioned it when we opened this episode, that’s when I first met you — you were getting ready to move into a much larger facility. And last week, we closed the episode with you mentioning that you’ve been in five locations in five years. Is that right?

Abel: Yes, five locations in five years. It’s been very challenging to continuously outgrow our space, but without the right space, you can’t grow. So it’s been something that has been necessary to continue our journey.

Spencer: And that really says a lot about your growth trajectory and where you’re going. How do you know when it’s time to expand? And how did you know it was time to make this move? Because this one was pretty big one.

Abel: Well, we were really just maxed out in storage and room for new equipment. It was pretty clear after six months in our last facility that if we were to get any new contracts that we were going to outgrow it. So as soon as we got another potential large contract, we started looking because I wasn’t going to make another big move unless I had something lined up that was going to pay the bill for it down the line.

This most recent space we moved into is really much larger than we need right now. But it’s going to be big enough for when this new client comes onboard sometime next year. And ultimately, you know, we’ll probably outgrow this space in two years. The challenging thing is you can only go so big and afford to have so much space and room for growth without signing up for more than you can afford at the time.

Spencer: Right? It’s a really specific sweet spot, wouldn’t you say?

Abel: It absolutely is. And it’s a tough balance because the idea of having to move again is really daunting. These moves are really painful and expensive. And just even from permits and buildouts, this last go round was pretty excruciating and stressful. So it’s not something I enjoy doing, you know, these moves are not something that I initially saw as part of my journey, but they’ve been necessary. I just try not to think too much about them. And I’m embracing that this is going to be part of the process.

Spencer: So in each move, what lessons did you learn? Because you started with a decision to step into manufacturing, and now you’re stepping into a new facility that you’re hoping will sustain your growth for two years. A lot happened between those two steps.

Abel: Well, I learned that you have to give yourself a cushion for a lot of unfortunate things to happen in the process. So like with any construction project, it doesn’t go smoothly. You know, you spend all this money to dig out a new drain system, and you get into the guts of something, and then the builder couldn’t see that from the outset until they’ve dug down into the floor in a particular area and realize, okay, this isn’t going to work how we thought it was going to work.

So I’ve had to give myself this big cushion for problems that would come up along the way, so it wouldn’t stress me out so much to derail our moving forward. And that I think is the biggest thing about moving and buildouts and whatnot: just really knowing that it’s not going to be smooth. And you might have to switch contractors midway or, you know, fail inspections. And yeah, it’s been challenging. This last move was even exceeded any cushion that I built in for challenge.

Spencer: Wow. I mean, expect the unexpected is real. I mean, if COVID taught us anything, expect the unexpected. But that’s also a mantra, I think, for buildouts or moving into new facilities or even expansion in your operation. You’re right, it never goes on the timeline that you expect.

So the next thing I want to talk about is the equipment in the facilities that you’ve been in. We talked about this a little bit in the beginning in the first episode, but what did equipment choices look like when you first started making cookies? What were the priorities then, and what are the priorities now as you’ve moved into this full-scale manufacturing facility?

Abel: In my first facility, we had enough space for one line, and we didn’t spend a whole lot of time planning out flow; trying to make sure that we wouldn’t have unnecessary travel in the whole flow of the process. Whereas now, especially in this most recent move, we worked extensively to make sure that the space was appropriate, that we had efficient use of space, that things could flow correctly in the right direction, that there was room for the lines that we have right now and room for the next couple pieces of equipment we were going to buy.

I used a lot of advice from consultants to make sure that, first and foremost, I was getting into the right space. And then a lot of planning went into where we were putting out different electrical, different plumbing and the types of drains. So there was a lot of planning involved.

Spencer: How much work did you have to do on this facility to have it ready to install your operation?

Abel: It took us about three months to do plumbing infrastructure and to put on some additional gas lines for ovens and makeup air. The space was nice because it was a big rectangle. And that’s kind of an ideal situation where there’s not turns; it was just the right structure. So that saved us a lot in that we didn’t have to do much buildout in terms of the structure of the space, but we did need to put in a lot of plumbing and electrical infrastructure.

Spencer: What was the space previously used for?

Abel: It was used for food manufacturing. It was actually salsa. So it was a totally different type of food, it wasn’t something that was going through ovens. So that was nice, because there were already the food-safe walls and smooth, cleanable surfaces. That was really something that helped us to not have to spend a small fortune to put up, you know, FRP walls in a very large space. That made it appealing.

Spencer: Right. So we’re hoping that you’re going to be in this space for a couple of years, and there is room to grow and install at least another line. I remember one of the early conversations that I had with you as we were getting to know each other. I was sort of asking — because it’s what I do — like, “Do you know this equipment? You know, do you use this? Are you talking to this company?” And you had said something about, “Oh, I like that company, like it’s in my business plan to be big enough to invest in that type of equipment one day.” So when you look at the business plan, what are your thoughts on your capital investment priorities and strategies as you start on this journey in this facility?

Abel: Yeah, we definitely have some larger-scale equipment that we’re eyeballing for the future. And this particular room that we’re in will house the next step of automation that we want. But there’s some things that we can envision, you know, two to three years down from where we’re at right now. And that’s what’s going to cause us to elbow the space, again, is when we get into the big tunnel ovens and things that are really going to make us efficient.

That’s where our next move is going to come in. We don’t have that type of space here to be getting into the tunnel oven that will really make us productive and efficient down the line. There’s a few other types of equipment, whether it’s cooling tunnels or different things that we’ve seen, that would really help our process. But that’s going to be move No. 6!

Spencer: So speaking of operational efficiencies, you have that engineer’s mindset and it probably comes from having a finance background. You think about things sort of mathematically. It really fits in your DNA that you think like an engineer. So you employ some important GMP; we’ve talked in the past about Kaizen principles. So how have the GMPs that you use helped you get to where you are, especially as a relatively new manufacturer? How are you bringing those principles into your operation and having good manufacturing practices?

Abel: We just focus on creating systems for everything and then tweaking these systems to make them even better. So you know, with new employees that come in, there’s checklists for everything. And we just try to manage to these checklists, which are all GMP-based, because there’s a lot of moving pieces here. Everyone has to be following their checklist for the total process to come together at the end and be the product that we want and be processed in the GMP way that we need it to be. It’s a series of individual moving pieces that are really systematic, which then all have to come together.

It’s not been easy. I mean, that’s where you have to take this engineering approach on it, and make sure that it’s all systematized. But it’s really conducting an orchestra at times, and I have some great people on my team helping with that. But it’s still not an easy feat.

Spencer: Yeah. Just thinking about how our conversations have unfolded over these past few weeks, I can see this theme in how you started the business with this thoughtful approach and how you were very systematic about it in the beginning, in figuring out how to make cookies at all. Then figuring out how you wanted to get them out there to the public and the decision-making process. Systematic is the best word I can think of. And that makes sense. You seem like a person who lives and dies by her spreadsheets.

Abel: That’s funny you say that. Yeah, I do. I love a good spreadsheet. They’re necessary, though, because there’s no way to coordinate all of this without really having it all on a spreadsheet and tracking each part of it. Every day, I’m like, “Okay, I really need a spreadsheet for this.” So yeah, I sit and watch TV and come up with and work on my spreadsheets at night.

Spencer: I love it. I love it. So, with those GMPs, what kind of research do you conduct to know what systems are right for your operation? And what principles are the best ones to apply for what you’re trying to accomplish? Because there are just a ton of lean manufacturing principles out there.

Abel: Well, consultants have played an important part in that because I don’t want to recreate the wheel, right? It’s something that’s relatively complicated. So in the very beginning, I tried to figure out some of these things for myself, but then figured, okay, let me take an existing system and spend some money in consulting to find out how to really do this. And that’s when I quickly transitioned from measuring cups to scales and bigger mixers, and so on.

There’s been some people in the industry that have spent really generous amounts of time with me, just telling me how they do things. And they’re not necessarily in cookies, but I’ve found some mentors that have given me great advice. And then some amazing consultants and food scientists that have guided me with foundations in what systems to even be looking at. I don’t need to duplicate everything and make it my own, because there’s certain things that are industry standards that we’ve been able to use.

Spencer: I do feel that it could be very easy to over-engineer the process and get to a point where it’s counterproductive.

Abel: Absolutely. And I can sometimes start to overcomplicate things. I spend a lot of time taking my initial system and constantly refining things, because it’s easy to make things more complicated than they need to be. So that’s where this continuous improvement comes in. I’m constantly trying to simplify and simplify. That’s my mantra: keep it simple.

Spencer: Yeah, the process has to be simplified in order for a complex operation to be efficient. So we’ve already talked about leaning on other resources and doing research, but one thing that’s interesting about where you are in the new facility, is that you’re right down the street from another great bakery that I know pretty well. You’re neighbors with my friends at the Good Bread Company, which was formerly Michigan Bread. I love those guys. And I was so excited to make that introduction for you. How did having another bakery in the neighborhood help you get started in this facility, as your fifth operation?

Abel: They have been very helpful, and thank you so much for making that introduction. Even going to other manufacturing plants in the bakery industry is so helpful, to just see where we’re going to be a few years down the line. But these are the kinds of guys that have given me advice and have told me okay, here’s how to do this. Instead of me recreating a certain wheel, they’ve shown me things like: this is what took them a long time to dial in, these are the certain systems that are working for them, here are the ones that don’t need changing. So it’s been really helpful more than anything visually, to see where we want to go, but to have also some mentors that can commiserate and who remember being at the step where I’m at now. They can tell me some of the challenges they had here.

I’ve spoken to Mike and Spiro [from the Good Bread Co.] about staffing and how to find the right people as you grow. You know, that challenge of how you can’t necessarily afford the expert to come in at their expert’s salary. Some of these people you need to bring in and learn with them and grow with them. I’ve talked to them extensively about that issue, and how they dealt with that.

Spencer: I don’t think you could have moved into a better neighborhood. Mike and Spiro didn’t start out as bakers; they were in the distribution game. They’re also self-taught. So I was very excited to introduce you to someone who had been on a similar journey, who had the gift of hindsight to share with you so that you could sort of sharpen your lens closer to 20/20, but in real time.

Abel: Yeah, they have a very impressive operation. And they have been so helpful.

Spencer: So you’ve got your staff that you have right now, currently, and everybody’s sort of learning together as you go. And then you’ve also had the ability to lean on expertise from industry veterans and consultants and your neighbors at the Good Bread Co. From your perspective, how do you balance the advice from experts with your own ideas, as an entrepreneur, and a propensity to maybe do things a little bit differently or look at things in new ways? How do you create that balance in your operation?

Abel: It’s a good question. I’m leaning more and more toward these experts and their advice, because this is all unchartered territory for me. My mistakes are becoming more and more expensive at this point. I might have a certain way of doing things in my mind, but I’m really filtering it through the advice of experts, because I can’t afford big, expensive mistakes anymore, whereas in the beginning, I could dabble a little bit more when I was on a smaller scale and figure things out. But especially with equipment, you make a couple big equipment mistakes, and you’re sunk. So this is where I really value the advice of people that have done this before and getting what they suggest.

Even in addition to Mike and Spiro: Dave Van Laar and some other great consultants that I’ve had, some people that have really helped me at tradeshows. I’ve even had a few cookie companies take me under their wing, and these are much larger cookie companies with people who have been really generous with advice and guidance on the equipment side. They share their experience with what they’re using at this much larger size and guidance as to, you know, what to do and what not to do. I think that it’s been invaluable. I prioritize that over my own ideas at this point, because I’m really learning as I go with this growth stage.

Spencer: Yeah, yeah. So were you surprised at how open other baking companies are to take you under their wing and help guide you in, “Here the things that worked for us, here’s equipment that works for us”? Because it’s something that is signature to the baking industry, that someone from the outside might not expect. Was that a surprise to you?

Abel: It really was a pleasant surprise of how generous people were with their time and advice. And it’s been so, so helpful. Without it, I would’ve made several other mistakes along the way. But you know, I always myself try to be as generous with mentorship and advice. I’m trying to always pay it forward with a lot of smaller bakers or startups will come to me and ask for advice or guidance. And I tried to provide it just as much as I’m getting it from these other, much larger companies, who have been so helpful and generous to me.

Spencer: There is so much camaraderie in the commercial baking community. I’ve talked to bakers who have toured other bakery operations in order to troubleshoot problems that they’re having, or get endorsements or feedback on potential equipment or lines that they’re looking to invest in. I’m so happy to hear that you’re experiencing that as well, because that’s one of the things that I love the most about this industry.

Abel: Yeah, it’s very comforting to have people who actually care to see other companies be successful. There’s enough room for all of us to be successful. And, you know, I’m glad that they see that, and I see that, and we all have to help each other.

Spencer: I mean, it really is the whole rising tide philosophy: a rising tide truly does float all boats.

Abel: Absolutely.

Spencer: Rebecca, that is all I have for our conversation about manufacturing. I love hearing about where you are with your operation right now, and I know that there’s more to come with what you’re doing there in Taylor, MI.

In a couple of weeks, we’re going to circle back and talk about that; I’m excited to get your take on having visited IBIE and seeing 1 million square feet of innovation. But before we get to that, next week, we’re going to talk about the thing that is on everyone’s mind: people development. So that’s what we’re going to dive into next, is how you’re developing your staff and what growth looks like from that perspective..

Abel: Sounds great. That’s definitely an important part of our company.

Spencer: All right, Rebecca. It was great talking to you and I will talk to you next week.

Abel: Sounds great. Thanks, Joanie!

Welcome to the fifth season of the Troubleshooting Innovation podcast. Joanie Spencer, editor-in-chief for Commercial Baking, talks with Rebecca Abel, owner of D’Vine Cookies in Taylor, MI. They’re looking at cookie production through the lens of an entrepreneur, from starting a bakery to moving into the first big facility to strategic growth into the future. Sponsored by the National Honey Board.

This episode unpacks key learnings for product development and R&D.

Learn more about this season here, and listen to Troubleshooting Innovation on Apple, Spotify, Google and Stitcher.

Joanie Spencer: Hi, Rebecca. Thanks for joining me again this week.

Rebecca Abel: Hi, Joanie. Great to be here.

Spencer: Last week, we had a very fascinating conversation about your journey in starting D’Vine Cookies, and really learning the art of cookie making and cookie production for manufacturing. This week, I want to talk about your philosophies on how you chose the type of cookie you wanted to make. And what goes into your product development behind that. Our first hire here at Avant Food Media, I remember having the conversation about if she is a crispy cookie kind of girl or a soft bake cookie kind of girl. Your cookie preference almost defines your personality. How did you choose what type of cookie you wanted the designed to be?

Abel: Well, it’s funny you ask that because I did find that there are definitely two sides of this cookie game with the crispies or the chewy and soft. I went with my preference, my cookie is a little bit crispy on the outside, and then soft on the inside. I wanted the thick, more underbaked type of cookie that I enjoy eating, because I figured if I’m taste testing all these cookies, I have got to go with what I like. And I am very much on that side of the fence, the soft and gooey cookie.

Spencer: I think I’m a soft baked cookie myself. There’s something comforting about it.

Abel: I figured maybe I can combine the two. If I can have a little bit of crisp and a little bit of soft, then I’m really winning.

Spencer: I like that a lot. That’s a great concept. After several years, how has the product evolved, since you first started testing all of those cookie recipes?

Abel: Well, it’s evolved a lot with going into automation, because equipment changes your product. We started with a much thicker cookie, because I wanted a cookie that was really stocky, and it worked well, when we were making everything by hand and using the six pan oven. Then as we began getting into larger automation, the cookies didn’t come out the same. So things have evolved, and they’re still soft on the inside and crunchy on the outside, but they’re not quite as stocky. That has been something that I’ve had to adapt to and adapt my packaging too. It’s hard to make the same cookie when you’re making it by hand and using different automation equipment and making things on a much larger scale. But to me, it was all about consistency through the flavor. If every flavor I made was the same shape and size, then I was okay. The look of the cookies evolved substantially from, it being about an inch and a half high when I initially started to about three quarters of an inch high at this point.

Spencer: Obviously, you have to have that consistency when you’re manufacturing and the cookies have to fit into a package in exactly the same way. When you’re looking at a consumer experience or a consumer expectation that’s very different from a cookie you buy from a storefront. What was your mindset and reconciling adjusting that formula to create that consistency with your product?

Abel: Again, going for consistency between all the different flavors. It took a lot of R&D, once I was going into the scaling mode, to tweak the recipes to get everything looking consistent now that we were making it in a different way. My mindset was okay, I’m just going to keep tweaking things until they’re perfect. There was a lot of time and a lot of waste that we had to incur to get things to be right. And a lot of batches that we had to donate or give away that didn’t look consistent once we were making them with equipment and it was frustrating. I had no idea that it was going to be as complicated as it was but I hired food scientists and consultants and again, had to go into this big research mode. In order to get things so that they would all come out looking and tasting the same, but it was about this look of the same diameter and the same height and so on.

Spencer: Right. How many skews do you have today? I know you talked about when you had your vision for the company wanted to have 40 different kinds of flavors. Where are you now?

Abel: We’re about 32 skews of products. There is still a lot of depth and that’s what I focus on was depth in my product line. I make keto, vegan, gluten free, classic, and stuffed cookies. To me indulgence was about choice, and having a lot of different flavors, options and cookies that were still decadent, that somebody who was vegan and gluten free could have. We still do have a lot of skews, which is complicated, because to manufacture a lot of different flavors with different ingredients is not an easy feat. But that’s part of what our company is, is about depth of flavors.

Spencer: Yeah. On that note, with that depth of flavors. Let’s talk about what some of your current product development strategies are. Is flavor development really the primary focus and strategically looking down the road? Is that where you’re going to maintain your focus? Or do you have any thoughts or plans for new product types that you’re going to tinker with?

Abel: Right now, it’s on flavors. I look at every ingredient I can get my hands on. I go to various trade shows, and really focus on the ingredients side, in my role. I do all the R&D and all the flavor creation. I want to find amazing compound companies or extracts or different inclusions. And then, look at flavor trends in the market. That’s my focus on what’s going to make a great cookie is a complex flavor profile and textures. Right now I’m not looking at increasing and getting into new products, I want to stay in cookies. Down the line it’s something that once we’ve really perfected and have our cookie systems ago and are in a much bigger space, then maybe I’d consider getting into some other categories of desserts. But I figure keep it simple. Let me stick with cookies and make the very best cookies that we can make and innovate some new flavors, and then maybe we’ll add on to it. But cookies is enough.

Spencer: I mean, there’s a lot you can do with cookies. I’m actually sitting here thinking about when it comes to flavor development, is it better to enhance a current flavor and make it better and increase the quality of a flavor that you have? Or is it better to figure out what the next big flavor is going to be?

Abel: I do a little bit of both. But I tried to focus on small improvements of our core products. I’ll look at how can we put a little more filling in this cookie? Or how can we make it have a little more complex of a flavor profile. But it’s not simple because we have to purchase a lot of packaging for something and keep all of our product on label. You can’t necessarily change the ingredients. But maybe you change slight quantities and things. It’s not necessarily something easy to do, but it is my focus to have small improvements. Constant small improvements is my focus on the cookies and kind of in life. But it is fun. It’s fun to come up with new product ideas. I like to go into that creative side and brainstorm things. The way I do it is I take classic flavors of things. For instance, turtle cheesecake or something like that, I might go out to a restaurant and have a turtle cheesecake. And I’m constantly thinking, “I’m gonna make a turtle cheesecake cookie that’s really fun and exciting.” I do do that, I try to come up with a couple new flavors a year. But really remind myself how can I make what we have even better?

Spencer: You’re a young brand and a relatively small company? Do you think that helps you in your product development? Or does that hinder you? Because one of the benefits of being small is that you are nimble, and you can fire off those new ideas and try new things really quickly. But does it make it hard though, being young and small?

Abel: No, I think it makes it easier because we don’t have a lot of red tape to make changes in our products. I’ve worked with different consultants that are amazed at how quickly we can pivot something. Because they’re used to working with the bigger companies that it might take six months to roll out something or to roll out any kind of small change. And for me, it’s a decision that I’m making relatively independently about, since I do all the R&D and product development if I’ve decided, we’re going to make a change in this cookie. It’s me figuring out the change, and then getting with my graphic designer then printing new film and then changes are done. And then it is just letting the distributors know. But it’s still pretty easy. Now I view it getting harder as we get bigger and bringing it to more higher level management employees, it’s not going to be quite so easy. That’s why I’m really trying to get things dialed in still now, before we go on our next massive growth spurt.

Spencer: Rebecca, I was just going to say enjoy it while you can.

Abel: Yeah. There is something nice about being limber and small.

Spencer: Yes, for sure. That is the joy of being a small operation. That you can just fire off those ideas and just run on the adrenaline of ideation.

Abel: Definitely.

Spencer: Let’s take that a step further and look at how R&D and product development fit into your business plan. What is the strategy for growth in terms of your product development.

Abel: I am looking to keep things, simple on product development. I’m looking to stay within cookies and innovate a couple new flavors a year. I want to have our core lineup of flavors, which we have. I always start initially overcomplicating things and think, “Let’s roll out a new flavor every month.” But as you’re doing large scale production, it’s not so easy. You’ve a certain amount of film that you have to buy. At this point, we have a core lineup of flavors. Then we have two quarterly offerings. Right now I’m finalizing for 2023, what those quarterly offerings are going to be, that’s my realm, as I’m the R&D and I’m the person sourcing the ingredients and looking at new vendors for cool and unique inclusions or toppings, or whatever we’re gonna put into the cookie. Our strategy is to innovate, but to keep things simple, so that it’s actually sustainable. We can keep our focus narrow so that we can come up with something really good.

Spencer: Do you get requests from customers, on the branded side — of course, not for the contract manufacturing. But do you get requests from your customers for different types of flavors or things that their consumers are looking for?

Abel: We do. People love to make requests on flavors, and I love getting them. But I also have to know when to say no. Because they don’t realize when they request this particular flavor, how much work really goes into it. People love to share their ideas for different combinations. It’s fun to talk about, but I can’t do everything that people want. You know, I’ve resolved that we’re not going to please everybody here. But some people have some great ideas that I will pursue.

Spencer: Are you going to pursue the turtle cheesecake cookie, I have to know that it’s nine o’clock in the morning where I am right now, as we’re recording this and all I can think about is turtle cheesecake cookie.

Abel: I love turtle cheesecake. And I do think we’re going to pursue it but it didn’t make our lineup for next year. I couldn’t fit it in. I was trying to pick flavors that would resonate with the quarter, I’ve got my winter, spring, summer and fall. I think that that would be a good fall cookie. But I had two that I just liked better than that flavor for the fall. I’m sticking with my pumpkin cheesecake and my caramel apple pie for the fall next year.

Spencer: Oh my gosh. I’m sitting here thinking maybe next Thanksgiving, I’ll be able to enjoy a turtle cheesecake D’Vine cookie.

Abel: I’m going to put it on a document for 2024. How about that?

Spencer: Okay, fair enough. Fair enough. Keep me posted.

Abel: You’ll be a tester in 2023. When I’m working hard on it.

Spencer: I’m totally in. Okay, the next thing that I want to talk about with product development is quality. And the role that quality plays in your R&D. What’s the ratio between QC and R&D in your product development?

Abel: That’s a great question, because we’ve recently hired somebody in QC to really focus on that. Because the R&D lab is completely different than the production space, especially because we’re making things in small batches. But they’ve really got to equal out because, we’ve got to dial in the R&D and then we have to translate it into the production floor. And make sure that this cookie is coming out the right size and the right shape and it really can be difficult to translate to the equipment from what I’m making in my lab. It’s definitely a delicate balance there, and can be frustrating. And it can be expensive to dial it in on the QA side, and to not be able to use a lot of cookies in the beginning once we’re launching a new flavor. But we have a commitment to things really looking consistent. And so we donate a lot of product because it doesn’t meet our QC or QA standard. It’s frustrating and expensive, but it’s a commitment that we make to make sure our cookies are consistent.

Spencer: How do you think having someone dedicated to QC on your staff is going to help streamline that and figure things out in the development stage before the testing stage? Is that something that this person can sort of bring to the team so that you’re not doing as much trial and error?

Abel: Yes, then she’s new in the role. But that is my goal, that she can assist to help transition from the lab to the production floor in a little bit more meaningful way. I don’t want it to be as frustrating as it is right now, to make that transition and have to go through four or five big batches to really dial things in.

Spencer: Right. So what is her background? And again, we’ll get into this in a couple of weeks when we talk about like people development versus product development. But is that her background? Or is this something that she’s hired to focus on this, and she’s going to be learning it as she goes?

Abel: She is somebody that’s learning it as she goes. She’s a baker, but she hasn’t worked in the production world. It’s a little bit different when you’re in a retail bakery than when you are in a manufacturing facility. But with being small, a lot of my employees I’ve had to hire and train and learn with them. Versus finding industry veterans, just because we are still a startup, it’d be great to hire somebody with 10 years of experience. But it’s not necessarily affordable to do. So consulting with experts, I have a call next week with a food scientist to narrow down some issues that we’re having. Her and I will do that call together so that we can put those learnings into place. So that next time, we don’t have to make the five batches to dial things in on the equipment. The goal is to have her really able to help me transition these products a little bit better, so that the QC is not as wasteful for the first batches of something new.

Spencer: That’s probably what the downside to being able to be that nimble and try new things. It comes with a bit of waste when you have to do that trial and error.

Abel: Definitely. That’s why when people have all these requests, I have to filter it through well, that sounds like an amazing cookie. But we can only pick two. Because if we’re trying to make seven new cookies, we’re going to have a lot of downtime, and a lot of waste.

Spencer: Do you rely on your ingredient suppliers at all in that R&D process? And trying to identify bringing quality into it?

Abel: Definitely. I’ve consulted with some really great chefs that are resources of some of my suppliers. They’ve been really helpful and have great ideas. I’ll take any advice that I can get, but especially if it’s coming from a really well-known pastry chef. One of my suppliers in specific has access to some really great people in the baking world that I’ve been able to pick their brains and get advice on how to get a crumble and a little bit more textured and so on.

Spencer: That’s awesome. Okay, here’s a question. You probably don’t remember that we talked about this. But one of the first conversations I had with you that I remember thinking, “Wow, this lady is something special.” You mentioned that you take an engineering approach to your product development. Do you remember telling me that?

Abel: Yeah, I do.

Spencer: How does that work? And what are the benefits to thinking like an engineer when you’re developing a cookie?

Abel: Well, I need to have something that I can systematize. To me, engineering is about like systems. I have to be very selective on when I’m R&D in a cookie of what can be systematized? For instance, let’s say, I had an idea to put a Reese’s Peanut Butter Cup in the middle of a cookie. That can’t be systematized with the type of automation we have. I have to filter everything through. Will this work and automation? Yes, it can be a great idea and I love this flavor. But is it something that can be on a shelf? Is it something that can work on my machines? I start by filtering everything through that and have to design my products, so that they work for mass manufacturing. I’m looking to make hundreds of thousands of each flavor. And we have to make it so that it will work with the tools that we have.

Spencer: If my turtle cheesecake cookie isn’t coming until Thanksgiving of 2024, do you look at like an 18-month lead time on your product development?

Abel: No, I look at usually a six-month lead time. But I like to come up with the ideas, I have a schedule. For next year, I’m working on my cookies that will launch in the wintertime and finalizing ingredients and a process and doing some test bakes on what those are. Yes, the idea is 18-months out of what’s coming in 2024. But the R&D and the trials are about a six-month time and then I have to dial in where we’re going to source these ingredients from and get my film ready and all that. I’m not patient enough to wait 18-months from concept to implementation.

Spencer: Okay. When you talk about sourcing the ingredients, what comes first the capabilities of your current ingredient supplier, or the idea or concept for the new product? Do you come up with the product, then figure out what ingredient supplier is going to source it? Or do you look at what your current resources are? And how can we R&D within that space, especially now that supply chain is such an issue?

Abel: I tend to come up with the flavor first, and then figure out where I’m going to source the ingredients from. Sometimes I’ll be at a show and I’ll see an ingredient. And I’ll design something around it. Because again, I’m looking for innovation and I’m looking for cool products. Sometimes seeing something might trigger an idea for a product. My current suppliers have some great resources, but I’m looking for unique mixes or unique ingredients out there. It’s a little bit of both. I have great suppliers that I can find most of what I need from and I utilize them as much as possible. But it is really fun finding a total new supplier and something that they’re making that drives a flavor in itself.

Spencer: Yeah. With this whole discussion of product development, how has your approach to product development R&D impacted the way you think about manufacturing, your approach to manufacturing? Because if we look back at last week, we talked about your conscious decision to manufacture to go scale. And then next week, we’re going to really get into the equipment side and the manufacturing side. But how has your approach to R&D impacted your approach to manufacturing? We talked about a little bit in the beginning, as far as you have to think about how a new product is going to be machined on the line. But how do you think about what machines you need based on what types of products you want to make?

Abel: I look at the machines that we have and what their capabilities are. We have to look at what the consistency of doughs or fillings that these machines can handle. I have to take my flavor and make sure that it’s going to be able to be processed through that equipment. It’s a balance between the two at all times. I can’t take something like a Reese’s Peanut Butter Cup and put it through my machine, it won’t work like that. You have to balance the R&D between what’s going to work in the equipment and what’s going to be the flavor that you want. The two have to be hand in hand at all times with all of my R&D.

Spencer: So have you ever had a conversation that sounded something like, “I would love to make X type of cookie or X variety or flavor of this cookie. But I’m not going to be investing in that type of equipment in order to make that happen anytime soon?”

Abel: Absolutely. Yeah, I do have to say no. And let them know why it’s something that I cannot make. Because people have all sorts of requests for something that they might want. But if I don’t have a plan to buy the type of equipment that can make that I’ll tell them right away “You know, that sounds amazing. But we don’t have the right equipment to do that. And that’s not something that we’re looking to purchase in the near future.” I tried to keep it real, honest and simple that here’s our capabilities. Here are things we can do and here are things that we can’t do.

Spencer: But on the flip side, we kind of talked about how R&D and product development fit into your business plan. Do you have your eye on any sorts of equipment that will change your R&D and product development capabilities in the future?

Abel: Definitely down the line, there are a few machines that I’d really love that could change our flavors with some of our toppings. But they’re at least a year down the line. It’d be great to have a whole lineup of different things that we could be using to give ourselves variety. But we’re just we’re not there yet. We have a decent bit of automation, but there’s always a list of five new things that we’d love and that we’re going to look at as money allows.

Spencer: Right. Okay, Rebecca, those are all my questions for this week. Thanks for making me so hungry at nine o’clock in the morning.

Abel: It’s hard to work in the cookie world. Talking about desserts.

Spencer: I have a rule at my house that Christmas Day is the only day where it’s okay to eat cookies for breakfast. But I want to have a cookie for breakfast right now.

Abel: Oh, yeah. It’s tough working in a cookie factory. I’ll tell you that. There are a lot of cookie breakfasts in my world.

Spencer: I don’t know how you do it. Okay, next week, we are going to look at the machines and the manufacturing and talk about that journey, from a storefront into manufacturing and where you are now. Because you just recently made a big step into a new facility. You’re sort of the new kid on the industrial block. We’re going to talk about that next week. I’m very interested to hear your perspective in stepping into some new equipment and new facility and how that’s changing your business for you.

Abel: Well looking forward to talking all about that. It’s it has been a process. This is our fifth move in five years.

Spencer: Wow. Well, hopefully you’re in a home that you’ll be in for a while. And I cannot wait to hear about this journey next week. Thanks for joining me this morning and I will talk to you about more manufacturing next week.

Abel: Sounds great. Thanks so much, Joanie.