Welcome to Season 8 of the Troubleshooting Innovation podcast. Joanie Spencer, editor-in-chief for Commercial Baking, is spending this season with Marc and Elana Schulman, the second and third generations of leadership at Chicago-based Eli’s Cheesecake. Their conversation explores innovation, growth and longevity through the eyes of a family-owned bakery. Sponsored by Oakes.

In the first episode, learn about the foundation of resilience and reinvention on which founder Eli Schulman built this family legacy.

Learn more about this season here, and listen to Troubleshooting Innovation on Apple, Spotify and Google.

Joanie Spencer: Hi, Marc and Elana. Thanks so much for joining me.

Marc Schulman: Good afternoon. Great to be with you.

Elana Schulman: Thanks for having us. We’re so excited to be here.

Spencer: I just love your story, and I am so grateful for you both to take the time to share these next five weeks with our audience and just learn the history of Eli’s and see where you’re heading into the future. I thought we would just start off with a quick history and take a little walk down memory lane and talk about how Eli Schulman started Eli’s Cheesecake.

Marc: My dad, Eli Schulman, our founder, was a Chicago restaurateur, who had gone into the restaurant business in 1940. He had a wonderful history of operating restaurants in Chicago over the next 50 years. He always had a dream, which was to create a signature dish that he could take outside of the restaurant and sell on a broader basis. So, Eli’s The Place For Steak, was the legacy restaurant where he developed his cheesecake recipe. He was famous for many things such as calves liver, steaks and chopped liver.

We feel very fortunate that he came upon cheesecake because it has so many applications as the basis to take outside the restaurant. So, there was Eli at the age of 70 at the first Taste of Chicago on July 4, 1980, taking his cheesecake for the first time to the public to see and to experience so we always know what our birthdate is. It really created this tremendous foundation for us to grow for the next 43 years.

Spencer: I am familiar with your history, and we got to do a live podcast earlier this year at ASB’s BakingTech, and we had a chuckle over the fact that you could have gone into the liver business. We’re all so grateful that you went the cheesecake route instead, but I don’t think I realized that your dad was 70 when he took his first cheesecake to Taste of Chicago.

Marc: Well, Eli was always a dreamer and I think when you mentioned liver, there was a time we were on vacation and he saw a liver dish on the menu, and he had a vision for what that was. That became Liver Eli, which, before cheesecake, was his most famous creation. But it just shows the creativity of Eli and how he was always thinking about what was next. As a restaurateur, he was way ahead of the curve in saying “How do I take something outside of the restaurant and sell it on a broader basis?”

We talked about resilience and the long term. Certainly selling cheesecake on a national and international basis was much better than operating out of one restaurant during COVID and other times in our history.

Spencer: So, let’s talk about that for a minute … the point when the cheesecake became the product, and not the restaurant. What did that look like?

Marc: I think Eli was always promoting and we were fortunate when Mayor Jane Byrne had the first Taste of Chicago. It was July 4, 1980, and they shut Michigan Avenue down for the day. No one really knew what to expect. There were these huge lines and suddenly a whole new category of people who had never been to Eli’s A Place For Steak had that ability to get the cheesecake.

When I left to practice law, which was a couple of years later, we saw the interest and the opportunities in people loving Eli’s Cheesecake. And I think, with Eli’s history as a host and a celebrity, they really went hand in hand with that ability to say, “Hey, you could experience the best of Eli’s anywhere in the country.” So, we were just fortunate to build upon all that goodwill from the restaurant and with making a really great dessert. In the beginning, it was four flavors of cheesecake. Over the years, we have leveraged that into many categories and other types of desserts that we make today.

Spencer: It’s incredible to think he built this successful restaurant, which was not his first business endeavor, and then at age 70 he had this incredible dessert that he was able to take to Taste of Chicago, and it was gaining all this notoriety. How did that evolve into the need for its own production facility? Had you already come into the business at that point? How did it become, “We have something here that we have to take out of the restaurant and start producing this at scale.”?

Marc: It took a few years, and then in 1984, we signed the lease on the first bakery that was half a mile south of where we’re located today. And that gave us the ability to grow the business and expand to start recruiting great people, a number of whom have joined us today. And then really getting into the creative side as the needs of our customers evolve. First people knew us for Eli’s Signature Cheesecake, those first four flavors. Over the years, those offerings have evolved in many different directions, in addition to the cheesecake.

Spencer: You all are known for so much beyond just a classic cheesecake dessert. When I was putting the questions together for this episode, I was thinking about what it was like going into that first facility. Technology in the ’80s and in the ’90s, when you went into your next facility, looked a lot different than it does today. It made me think of watching an action movie that is 10 or 15 years old, and the CGI and the special effects that we thought were so groundbreaking when the movie first came out, we look back on it now and we’re like, “Wow, there wasn’t much there.” Can you reflect on what was so groundbreaking at that time?

Marc: It is so interesting about bakeries and bakery equipment; all our new equipment has computers that work off networks and technology. But at the same time, we have equipment here that’s over 40 years old and it really does the job. The depositors have certainly evolved and gotten bigger and incorporated more technology, the same thing in mixing ovens. 

When we went into our first facility, it was a bakery and commissary for ARA, and there were revolving ovens in that facility, more of a pizza-type oven. So those were the first ovens that we used. We later added rack ovens to that bakery, and then when we moved to our current facility in 1996, we went with a tunnel oven and more rack ovens.

Certainly, a big thing in our business is how you cut the desserts, and cutting equipment technology has evolved in ways we are able to do it more efficiently. And then you get into all the packaging equipment, which produces a faster, better packaged and individually wrapped product that we didn’t do before.

I think the good news is in our industry, there are great resources to help guide us. As we have now finished our expansion, looking at additional capital, the good news about bakery equipment is that it has a fairly long life. We’ve even sold off equipment that’s 20 years old and received significant prices. So, people still saw the value of that equipment for the future.

Spencer: Wow, that’s awesome. I just imagine paying it forward and helping another bakery that might be a smaller operation be able to use tried and true, reliable equipment to help them get started when they maybe don’t have the capital to invest in modern technology right now.

Marc: Exactly, and I would add that when we did lease our first facility, it had been a bakery before and I mentioned the ovens, but there was a freezer and other pieces of equipment that we were able to use. Because the challenge in any business is how do you take it to scale and how do you grow without either taking on so much debt that you can’t repay it or trying to get investors? I’d say in our business, we’ve always had a facility of innovating, going as quickly as we can, but at the same time, finding the appropriate time. We never tried to bet the store on one product or one idea and we maintained a lot of flexibility as we grew.

Spencer: Just in knowing the whole story, even back further than the restaurant, your dad was very entrepreneurial. But is it fair to say that he was very calculated in the risks that he took? Because it seems like he didn’t try one thing and if he failed to go to another thing. He built on everything that he did in business, is that a safe assumption?

Marc: Absolutely. Eli was a child of the Great Depression and grew up at that time. So, I think you understand the value of goodwill, you understand the importance of taking care of customers and quality. I think he gave those values to us, and those are very important as we work to build the business for the future. My dad would say, “There’s no value that you can put on goodwill in your name.” So, working very hard to maintain that standard of customer response of quality, things that probably a private equity-owned business or a major corporation, wouldn’t have the personal approach that Eli had for his customers, or that Elana and I work to maintain today.

Spencer: So, I’m hearing you describe the criteria and priorities that you had when you got that manufacturing facility. But I also heard you when you said you were in the law practice, right?

Marc: Yes.

Spencer: At what point did you come into the family business? And I know for Elana it was the same way, she didn’t start off on the path of the bakery. I want to start with you, Marc. What was that point that you came into the family business and said, “Yes, this is where I need to be.”

Marc: I left the practice of law full-time in early 1984. Knowing that there was a lot of opportunity, but it’s something that my father, he was busy with the restaurant, wasn’t really in a position to do. As a lawyer, I always had this concern that 40 years after my father died, would I stay a lawyer so no one would know what Eli’s Cheesecake was or had been, or would I go into the restaurant business and pursue that, but no one would be a host like Eli.

Ultimately, the building that Eli’s The Place For Steak was located in, got torn down. So, what would have happened then? I’m pretty fortunate in my career for Elana and I to be able to tell Eli’s story. When I was a lawyer, I represented a lot of family businesses like ours. You would see the great successes or challenges, but the great thing about the family business is that the conclusion is unwritten. You make things happen when you’re a lawyer. It’s much more transactional in terms of representing people. It was great to work with my father for the years I did work with him before he passed away very untimely in 1988. And it’s a lot of fun to be able to tell his story every day with Elana.

Spencer: It feels like in the battle of head versus heart, your heart-led, and it seemed very easy for your head to follow that lead.

Marc: Absolutely. And I think as a lawyer, you learn a lot of technical skills, but you know, the people skills are most important. And the great thing about the food business is everybody loves to talk about food; everybody loves to talk about desserts. And certainly, people love to talk about cheesecake. So, it’s a much more fun way to spend your career.

Spencer: So, Elana, tell me what it was like, from your perspective, just growing up in this foodie family, but also a very entrepreneurial family. Because you didn’t first follow the path into the bakery directly, either. What was it like growing up in the Schulman house where there was steak, liver, cheesecake and ideas?

Elana: It was so much fun. I’m so lucky that I got to experience the steak house for the first 15 years of my life. I think growing up in a restaurant completely shaped my personality and understanding of what it takes to be in that business. I learned how you treat customers and how you treat the people you work with. I think seeing both sides of that transaction and interaction is interesting.

I’ve always said everyone should have a job in a restaurant or working in retail because it makes you a better person. You see how you should treat people and how much work goes into really creating an impactful experience. I grew up in the steak house and would spend summers coming to the bakery. I think just watching my dad manage both parts of the business … he handled it so well and was so present in our lives. But I mean, can you imagine running a commercial bakery during the day, and then you have three kids and a wife, and then at night, you’re going to your restaurant? It’s a wild lifestyle.

I really understood what it meant to work hard and just be so driven. Then at the same time, always be grateful for what you have, be really kind to people and treat people well, that is the most important thing.

I remember driving with my dad. We would drive around the city because my dad is passionate about Chicago architecture and the city itself, and he would just talk to me about business and what’s important. And it was always like, “You do well in business so that you can invest in other people’s lives.” That is what I would say about my childhood in a nutshell. That’s why I really wanted to come into the business.

My dad and I sit here all the time, and we talk about how lucky we are that we get to tell Eli’s story. That has always been what’s been important for me, hearing the story of how my dad really created the cheesecake part of the business. Because that was really the driving factor, that we can continue that family history and tell that story. I always knew I wanted to go into it, but I thought it was important to work for other people.

When I went to school, I was a film major. I think my dad was a little confused by that. It turned out to be a really great time to be a film major because I worked in video production and that hit at this time when every major company wanted video and so I had a lot of great experience working in food video production, in documentary film, and then came back to Eli’s in 2019 and joined full time, and it’s been amazing. I just love being here. I love the energy, and I love the people. I think, as my dad, said it’s a joyful business. We get to bring people together through our cheesecake and be a part of their celebrations and happy moments, and there’s really nothing better than that.

Spencer: That’s a really good point that you both said: This is a very joyful product and all baked goods are joyful. But whereas bread is a staff of life, and it is a necessity, cheesecake and desserts really, in general, is a product that is based on happiness and it caps off a meal. Just when you think everything’s great, you get a piece of cheesecake, and suddenly it’s better. Dessert makes things better. What is that day-to-day like to create happiness? Can you have a bad day when you’re making cheesecake? How do you balance business and seriousness while creating something that you are trying to make people happy by delivering?

Elana: That is such a good question. I’m going to let my dad weigh in, too, but I think business is stressful. Manufacturing is really hard. There are just so many factors at play, and things change constantly. But I think it is important to always remind yourself what the goal is. And the goal is to bring joy to people’s lives through desserts. I think it always brings us back to that point.

But I think that you have to remind people of that and remind yourself because I do think that it can get really hard. And I know w’’re going to talk about the pandemic and really challenging times. My dad’s been through far more challenging times than I have in this business. But at the end of the day, you have to really be conscious of that and make sure that everyone on board remembers why you’re doing what you’re doing.

Marc: I would add that the great thing about cheesecake, and we see it in comments on social media, letters or when you meet people and they tell you, “Hey, I’ve had Eli’s cheesecake pumpkin cheesecake on my table at Thanksgiving, Christmas or Easter 30 years.” People tell us, “I was there at the first Taste of Chicago, and when I got a taste I had to go to Eli’s.” It is that involvement that the customer has with the brand.

I think you know, Joanie, my wife, Maureen, who’s our publicist, and was the lead author, and worked with Elana on the second edition of our cookbook, Eli’s Cheesecake Cookbook. You tell the story of our people, the story, the big cakes, we’ve done over the years and how people such as President Obama or President Clinton have interacted with it. So, I think it’s an extremely huge honor to be able to do that and do this in real-time.

A lot of times you’ll hear about a brand, and they’ll say the brand has been around for 100 years. But the last time it was really an independent family business was 60 years ago. They really haven’t done anything unique or novel since. We do work in the community if it’s big cakes or events. I think every day we’re dedicated to creating these great desserts, but also to making a difference. There is a lot at play every day. But that’s the great thing about what the business allows us to do. We have extremely talented people developing the products, making the products and really going to a far bigger scale than we ever thought was possible.

Spencer: That’s something that I think is special about this company: this is a very classic dessert. It’s a very classic product that you’re making, in a very mature industry. However, you know how to innovate and stay relevant and do new things and try new things and as you said, make a difference. You’re doing good in the community as well.

I’m just going to ask you one quick question to close this first episode out, and it’s a bonus question that I didn’t tell I was going to ask. Do you think Eli could have predicted that this is what it would have become?

Marc: Yeah, absolutely. I remember a few months before he died, I’d taken him to the land to show him where we were building. Now, it took us eight years after he had died to make it possible, but he saw it. I also remember we had a leader in the food business who was leading a much larger food company. And Eli said, this was a year before he died, “Hey, you’re going to be there. You can do it.” And I see the goodwill and the values that he created for us. If he came back, he would say, “You should have probably done a few more things.” My father was very easy and the best to work with. But I think he had pretty high standards. I think he would say, “Yeah, this is what I always knew it would be.”

Spencer: That is wonderful. I was really hoping that that was going to be the answer. Marc and Elana, I am so excited to continue this conversation for the next few weeks.

Next week we’ll talk about how Eli’s Cheesecake set the standard for the Chicago-style of cheesecake. And that’s going to take us down the road of product development and a little bit of marketing and how you have to live up to the standard that you set for yourself.

Then over the next few weeks, we’ll also talk a little bit about some of your really cool and unique workforce development programs, and how you interact with the community. We are also going to reflect on what it was like to be a Chicago producer of baked goods during the pandemic and how you’ve overcome that and staged an incredible comeback, and then that’s going to lead us into a view of the future for Eli’s, so this is going to be a great season. And I’m excited to dive into all these topics with you both.

Marc: Thank you.

Elana: We’re so excited. Thank you. This is really special to do this because I learned something new from my dad every time I hear him speak, and it’s really nice that I get to have this also in the podcast and be able to listen to it for years to come. Thanks, Joanie.

Spencer: Thank you so much. And I will talk to you guys next week when we dive into what it’s like to be the standard setter

Season 8 of Troubleshooting Innovation, with guests Marc and Elana Schulman, the dad-and-daughter duo behind Chicago-based Eli’s Cheesecake, launches in just two weeks. Get a taste of what’s to come in this special episode recorded live at the American Society of Baking’s BakingTECH 2023. Hear about the company’s history and the values that are leading it into the future. Hosted by Joanie Spencer, editor-in-chief of Commercial Baking.

The first episode of Season 8 drops on Sunday, Sept 3. Stay tuned on commercialbaking.com, Apple, Spotify and Google.

Welcome to Season 7 of the Troubleshooting Innovation podcast. Joanie Spencer, editor-in-chief for Commercial Baking, speaks with Richard Charpentier, CMB, and CEO of consulting company Baking Innovation. Their conversation explores the technical aspects of creating high-quality, premium baked goods on a commercial scale. Sponsored by Puratos’ Sunset Glaze.

Our final episode revolves around the role the visual appearance of both the finished baked good and its packaging plays in garnering a higher price point.

Learn more about this season here, and listen to Troubleshooting Innovation on Apple, Spotify, Google and Stitcher.

Joanie Spencer: Hi, Richard. Thanks for joining me for this last week in our season.

Richard Charpentier: Hey, Joanie. Good to hear from you. Yes, I am glad to be part of it. I am sad it is already the last segment of the season.

Spencer: It goes by fast, doesn’t it?

Charpentier: We have had so much fun!

Spencer: For sure. Okay, so we are going to wind down this season by looking at the end of the process, the finished baked good and what happens when it is on the shelf. So, in terms of aesthetics, what is it that makes the difference between a standard and a premium baked good?

Charpentier: Very good question. When it comes to aesthetics, there are several factors that differentiate standard baked goods from premium ones. On cake, it’s the intricate designs and decoration on the product, or sometimes you even see that on the bread. If you look online at TikTok and Instagram, you will see people doing very intricate, unique shapes and patterns in breads and pastries. Look at an example of Cronuts. It’s basically a croissant, but it looks different and caught everyone’s attention to make them think it is a premium item.

When I started in the industry, Hostess was always considered, at the time and for years after, the leader of the premium boxed retail cake. One thing that made them different was their squiggle. That was the little thing that made a difference from a regular cupcake to a premium cupcake. So, things like that, when it comes to aesthetics, will make a big difference.

The appearance of a premium croissant may be the distinct flakiness of the golden color due to the high-quality butter and flour. People right away think this one look premium, just visually, and it doesn’t have to have a design. If it’s a product that is not retail, the packaging could be premium.

We mentioned Entenmann’s, and back in the days to make a product premium, their marketing approach was to make a clear window. This way it is like a retail store. Everyone can see what they’re buying. Therefore, visual appeal is selling appeal versus just something that is more of a neutral, like a box with a picture, because people perceive quality through the visual. It’s important to do that.

I read something that said 70% to 80% of the buying decisions are made visually. And it is true. If you walk somewhere and see something and think “Whoo, that looks nice. I want to buy it.” We use our senses to connect with food. And that’s why I think aesthetic is good as far as packaging goes, but the product used to look like the product on a picture, which is the challenge because if you open the box and you look at the product and you think “Oh, it looks nothing like it,” then most likely you will be disappointed and not buy it again. So, the visual aesthetic has to look nice. You mentioned burger and brioche buns in last week’s episode. When they have a beautiful shine to the bun, it makes you want to eat it.

Spencer: I have this image in my mind of a perfect brioche hamburger bun. The aesthetic and look of it is what sticks in my head and get my thoughts in motion for wanting a burger with a brioche bun. We talked about taste and texture last week and how taste reigns supreme. Taste is what will ensure the repeat purchase, but you’re right — appearance is what gets the purchase in the first place. So, when you think about the R&D process, where should appearance come onto the radar for a product developer? Does it need to be considered early on? How are we going to develop a product that’s very beautiful looking, as well as great tasting? Where does it fall in the process?

Charpentier: It’s a great question. Appearance, as we’re talking about this, really is the important overall appeal of the bakery product. From an R&D standpoint, R&D is there to design and create. So, the ingredients will play a factor in the finished product. It’s going to also be that the appearance is ultimately coming from the way it is being done in the plant, so the automation.

R&D can say, “Hey, this is a great product, but pies are being run every day. How much attention to detail is being put into the bakery to ensure that visual appeal is there?” Again, the example of the squiggle trademark on the cupcake. How do we ensure that it’s being done every day, and are the people trained? Is the product baked perfectly? Because in all the bakeries, they’ll have a chart that says overbaked, underbaked and perfect.

With entering premium, R&D can only control so much. But early in the process, R&D can dictate and set up the inline specifications and put a very strong standard deviation for the process to ensure that this is what we want to target, and don’t deviate from it. That’s where R&D’s role will be at the beginning, to check on the line test to ensure can we replicate the product? Can you duplicate the product? Can we triplicate the product and still get the same results, and feel confident about it? That’s what we did with my years at Conagra. We would go into the plant, and sometimes it would take up to three months to ensure that the product was repeatable.

Why was the product accepted to be put on the market is because it’s a unique product. And that’s where R&D will have to make sure they deliver consistent and visually appealing products day in and day out and with working very closely with the ops and manufacturing to ensure that it’s a doable thing. And if it’s not, then they should raise the red flag and say, “Hey, guys, we’re having a problem,” because there’s nothing worse than to push for premium and then you open the package and it’s a different experience, you’re going to be disappointed as a consumer.

Spencer: And that goes back to how I closed out last week’s conversation, that there has to be a relationship between the bakery science and the automation to bring it together.

Charpentier: Yes. Especially as we mentioned, dealing with yeast or chemically leaven, the bakery is full of changes, different ingredients. It’s a lot of chemical and biological reactions happening constantly. And monitoring a two-degrees difference makes a difference in your end results, and bakers know that. So how do we all work together to ensure more precision and the product coming out is going to resemble the product we made yesterday? That’s a challenge.

Spencer: Okay, I’m going to shift gears a little bit and go outside of the operation and go back to that channel discussion we had a few weeks ago. I want to talk specifically about the retail and supermarket shelves. What do bakers need to be mindful of in terms of how their premium products can be merchandise or will be merchandise? For example, how does a high-volume producer of center store products need to think about their market strategy versus a baker who might be producing items that are sold in the perimeter of the store?

Charpentier: To start, with the merchandising of premium products on the retail market shelves … I think the first thing is your packaging. The packaging of the product should be visually appealing and attractive to the customer. The way I look at it is, I go back to 1992 or 1993 when I think it was Hostess launched a baker’s end. They tried to do that premium retail baker bread with different packaging; it was on a brand bag. And I thought it was so cool. But the bread, overall, was too similar to what they were selling, so they could not sell the premium.

The packaging is key, so maybe think of all the ways of packaging bread. Maybe bread doesn’t have to be sliced. I’ve seen people who sell baguettes that are not sliced at the bakery deli category. Then another thing to keep in mind is the shelf life of your product. It’s not just the only thing, but it’s important that there’s no waste. Thinking of premium in terms of shelf life, you must consider where it’s being placed in the grocery store. And sometimes, consumers tend to think that the bakery deli aisle is fresher and more premium.

And then lastly, on that first question, I think marketing must find a way to be creative and showcase that it is still bread, but this bread is different how? Naybe use influencers and social media and create more awareness that says “Hey, that product is premium. Even though it’s the same brand, it’s different and this is why.” Almost like how the automobile industry launches a new car. It’s what is the added value and what’s the new experience that the bakery is giving the consumers? And then, how does a high-volume producer of center store product need to think about the market strategy versus a baker producing for the perimeter?

I come from grocery stores as well. If you look at the typical layout of a grocery store, the center store is most likely all the shelf-stable items and the middle aisles of a grocery store. And usually, they’re marketed to appeal to a wider range of consumers. But usually, those producers and manufacturers of those products in the center of store use heavier advertising and better promotion. They often use lots of coupons and discounts found in the paper to drive the sales and increase the market share.

But on the other hand, bakery products for around the perimeter, we’re dealing with perishable items. Typically, those products are going to be sold in smaller quantities and have higher-quality ingredients. And how do you market the difference? It’s knowing the market and knowing what will attract the customers to come in and then what are they willing to pay for as a premium price. That is going to be the first thing to understand, in my opinion, and see from the supply chain of distribution to the grocery store, can they use the same distribution?

Baking can be done differently. At one point I said, “Hey, let’s take some of your dough and freeze it. And then have the in-store bakery bake it for you.” Similar to what Walmart used to do but instead of being just the store brand, it could be Dave’s Killer Bread, “baked fresh every day” because freshness is going to be perceived as premium.

So again, I’m thinking outside of the box. I’m not saying that’s what they should do, but giving some thoughts around how that could be done because competing with the center store and the heavy marketing dollars that is spent to ensure people will come back, it’s difficult to compete, especially in the bakery category.

Spencer: Yes, for sure, because you’re looking at brand recognition versus marketing solely on the look of the product and what it’s packaged in. I do want to talk a little bit about packaging, because I will say I am a sucker for good packaging. In any capacity as a consumer, I will buy something if it’s packaged beautifully.

What do you think are the top packaging considerations in terms of things like the materials that it’s packaged in and if you can see the product, and how does the product look inside the packaging, but then also label claims that tout the ingredients or the quality or even nutritional claims? How should bakers be taking those types of things into consideration?

Charpentier: In my opinion, to attract people and to give advice to the bakers in terms of packaging and consideration … we mentioned on the first week, Laduree, with its French macaroons. Once you walk into a store or retail shop and you see all the products on display, and they are full of colors, it makes you want to buy them. So, I think visibility-wise you have your product, how do you work it out? I want to see what I’m buying. If you have just a box with a beautiful picture, I think that is great, but it doesn’t make me want to eat the box. I want to eat the product. We are using our senses, as we mentioned in prior weeks, the aesthetics, the appeal, visual appeal is super important, the taste, the texture, etc. We’re connecting with the product in terms of our senses. So visual appeal will make the product stand out on the shelf.

And then you have other aspects to help that people will use such as matte packaging, or resealable packaging or oxygen scavengers. We can revamp the packaging, based on what you do. And then right now, we cannot forget sustainability. I think bakers should be thinking of designing packaging with sustainability in mind, such as eco-friendly materials or minimizing packaging. Because there is a cost to packaging, but there is also cost of premium.

So, it is finding the right balance of “Alright, how could I create the best packaging and still be premium while being sustainable?” It is work to find the balance and to get the product, the packaging, the supply chain and the distribution to deliver the packaging. But again, with packaging, visibility would be the number one appeal to me. I want to see my product; I want to see what I am buying.

Spencer: I tend to agree with you on that. So then on the flip side, some commercial bakers are producing for foodservice. What are the visual aspects that scream high-quality to a restaurant when they are selling their products? Bringing it back to the hamburger on a brioche bun.

Charpentier: I was about was about to say that it’s true. With restaurant owners and the foodservice, it is a different priority when it comes to the high quality and visual appeal of baked goods. They want to set themselves apart. How many times have we sat in a small restaurant, and you get your burger, and the bun is basically the same bun that you can buy at the grocery store. And you’re like, “Yeah, this is good.” But it takes away the experience. It’s like if you love to drink wine and a restaurant serves the same wine that you have at home.

I think restaurant owners want something to set them apart. The example of a brioche and if it is nice and shiny and then it goes through the aesthetic of taste and texture and all the things we’ve been talking about, then the customer is going to say “Hey, I’m coming back here because the product is consistent. I love it, and it is different, which is part of the experience.” And for them, offering premium products that appeal to the customer is how they build their customer satisfaction, loyalty and people coming back, unlike a manufacturer or a high line, where they push all the products out and then they are done.

Small restaurant owners are dealing with customers every day. If they’re not happy, they’re going to stand up and say, “I want to speak to the manager.” So, for them premium is very important. Not only are the burger buns important, but it could also be the rustic sourdough loaf, because the crust is caramelized and the chew is great. You can go to a place that serves premium bagel sandwiches, maybe they’re receiving the bagels partly baked and then finishing them there. Having an appeal that almost looks like an artisan baker made it.

Again, if customers think they are getting a quality product, it justifies the higher price point for my burger. The meat is great; the burger is amazing. I’ll spend $18 for a burger, because now it’s worth it to me. I think it’s a great point, because sometimes there’s a disconnect. It would be interesting to get a premium meat burger and put one on an everyday type of burger bun that you can buy at the grocery store, and then put one on a brioche bun. Take 50 people and say, “Which one would you want” I can almost assure you that most people will go for the brioche or the nicer-looking bread.

Spencer: Oh, absolutely. And I will tell you, these high-quality brioche buns or high-quality sourdough breads for a great sandwich, they can be made at scale. And these foodservice customers are really seeking that because you’re right: they can’t do that in the back of the house.

I was at a restaurant and ordered a sandwich, and I had that experience that you described. I was like, “This is something that I could have made in my own refrigerator, just by opening up my refrigerator and seeing what I have laying around. I could have done this in five minutes.” And that is an impactful experience and not in the direction that a foodservice operator would want it to go. So, I think that it is important for baker’s to really understand that there is a business opportunity to be had in creating high-quality premium baked goods for foodservice customers.

Charpentier: Good point. That’s true. That’s where we want to make sure it’s all about the experience. It’s not just the product you could buy every day. But if you want premium, you have to rethink what is premium?

Spencer: Yeah, I’m going to be a little bit contradictory, though in my next question. I’m curious, visually, what your opinion is on quality crossover among different channels. And I’ll just give you a narrative example. So, during the pandemic, my family and I had this tradition when foodservice was shut down and you could only get carry out. We started a tradition that on Friday nights, we would order carry out. We’re a family of three, so we would rotate one person got to choose each Friday. We still kind of do it today, but we don’t necessarily do carry out; we’ll go out to eat.

But one Friday, my son said, “It’s my pick. And I want to make at home, great hamburgers. And have all the fixings and make fancy hamburgers and do it together in the kitchen, all three of us making these.” So, we went to the grocery store and picked out the best we could find.

So that’s my narrative example of what I’m asking as far as the visual crossover among channels. Because I personally experienced that when we were in the bread aisle, looking for which type of bun we want to make our great burgers on. What do bakers need to keep in mind, especially those who might be selling into multiple channels like foodservice and retail?

Charpentier: I like your tradition; that’s a fun one. It’s fun to ask everyone to be in charge of the meal. But in terms of visual quality crossover among different channels, I think consumers are looking for, and they expect, the same level of visual quality of attention in detail that you would get at a high-end restaurant. They would love to get it, and right now what we’re talking about “Hey, there’s a big opportunity right there, and how do we do it?”

Similarly, I think visually appealing, high-quality baked goods from a bakery may be expected to have the same quality and attention to detail as ones that are sold at a specialty food store online, like Whole Foods or something like that.

But the visual quality from consumers using our senses, like taste, smell, visual, hearing, etc., I think visual is the biggest way we can attract customers in. And visual quality of a baked good will communicate the level of quality and craftsmanship regardless, in my opinion, of the channel through a sold. It’s not just saying, “Oh, it sold. Why not have a premium in a vending machine?” Again, it’s rethinking how we’re doing things and rethinking what’s premium and what do we want? And throughout, we’ve clearly determined that all of us as consumers, all of us will spend, regardless of demographics, extra money for something we consider premium.

Spencer: Yeah, the research is showing that based on what I’m seeing. In all the research reports, despite inflationary pressure that we talked about in the very first episode, consumers are showing that they’re willing to spend more money for a higher-quality baked good.

Charpentier: And then that’s why we’re still seeing smaller retail bakeries in Philadelphia or in New York still have a line of door to buy a premium bread or a premium sandwich. But again, through the weeks of conversation, it’s about the experience. It must be visually appealing, and that can crossover among different channels. It must taste good and have a great texture. That will bring people back. So, it’s almost like Anton Ego from Ratatouille. Make sure no matter what, people can go back to that.

Spencer: Yes. And I think that is the perfect sentiment to close out this season on. By the way, I do love Ratatouille. It’s such a great movie. Richard, thank you so much for having this conversation with me and really diving into the technical aspects that are really required for bakers to think about creating high-quality premium baked goods, because you’re right: people are lining up down the street at the retail level. Commercial bakers have an opportunity to tap into this trend and make great baked goods. So, thank you so much for sharing your wisdom and your insight. It’s truly been a pleasure to chat with you over these past five weeks.

Charpentier: It was my pleasure to chat with you, Joanie, and I hope that this will inspire people listening to think differently. So, thank you for letting me be part of the conversation.

Welcome to Season 7 of the Troubleshooting Innovation podcast. Joanie Spencer, editor-in-chief for Commercial Baking, speaks with Richard Charpentier, CMB, and CEO of consulting company Baking Innovation. Their conversation explores the technical aspects of creating high-quality, premium baked goods on a commercial scale. Sponsored by Puratos’ Sunset Glaze.

In this episode, you’ll learn effective strategies to upgrade the most important attributes of baked goods — taste and texture — for a premium experience.

Learn more about this season here, and listen to Troubleshooting Innovation on Apple, Spotify, Google and Stitcher.

Joanie Spencer: Hi, Richard. Thanks for joining me this week.

Richard Charpentier: Hey, Joanie. I am glad to be part of it. Thank you for having me.

Spencer: Yes, absolutely! So, we’ve had some great conversations, ranging from market conditions to the definition of premium, and we’re really dialing in. So this week, we’re going to talk about taste and texture and how to premiumize those aspects of baked goods. First, I want to look at it from the broader perspective. From the consumer perspective, what would you say are the taste expectations that are associated with a premium item?

Charpentier: That’s a great question. I’ll put my consumer hat on and think about what people want to consume. The first thing is satisfying flavors. Look at the example of a premium croissants. From a taste standpoint, you’re thinking it is going to taste buttery, it’s going to have a long-lasting impression on the taste buds. I think taste is essential.

Another aspect of what the taste expectation associated with premium, it’s going to be when it is well balanced. We’ve tried different cakes. When you get a premium chocolate cake and it’s delicious, it’s a perfect balance of sweetness and chocolate. It’s just perfect, and it’s optimized. It is the same thing if it’s something more savory. You’re going to have the spices and the herbs, and it will be more balanced.

And then it has to be something natural and authentic flavors. Those simple, unique flavors. Consumers expect premium baked goods to use natural and authentic ingredients, and that’s going to contribute to the taste experience rather than the product that uses artificial flavors or any other mimicking flavors. But if you have a strawberry cake, and use fresh strawberry and make strawberry coulis, and you have the intensity in the right season, I think that is the key.

The last point is consistency of the tastes. There’s nothing worse for me if you go to a great restaurant, and everybody is raving about a dish or dessert, and you try it but it’s not the same. It is expected, when you have premium baked goods, to be consistent in terms of taste.

Spencer: That is so important. I want to ask you your opinion on this. I was talking to a baker the other day, and he’s a product developer, so he focuses a lot on R&D and actually has an engineering background. So, we were talking about product development and consumer expectations, and you think about formulaically, this is how a product should taste. The formulas is nailed, and we got it right, and this is how the consumer should receive it, but that’s not always the case. The consumer sometimes has different expectations.

We were kind of joking around with the analogy of when Coca Cola came out with New Coke, and formulaically it was an improvement on the original, but consumers did not accept it and they did not like it. I guess my question for you is, in your opinion, what does it take for bakers to get in alignment with their beliefs on what a product should be and the expectation that a consumer has for that product?

Charpentier: The beliefs and expectations relating to the consumer … I think the first thing is how bakers can align for that because R&D can create the best product, but how do we get there? I think it’s for bakers to conduct great market research because to truly understand the needs and value of your target market.

The second thing I would tell bakers is to listen to customer feedback and respond accordingly. I have worked in bakeries, even in R&D. I would think, “This is going to be an amazing product.” It comes back where the customer of that brand might have a great product, but that’s not what they want from the brand. So, listen to customers’ feedback and any concerns they might have and what they want. And I think bakers should learn more about how to provide a variety, which retail bakeries already do, of different products that can cater to different tastes and preferences because that’s going to be very important to reach, in my opinion, a wider audience, and to make sure you get a little bit of something for everyone. Maybe that might not be doable for everyone to do everything because everybody’s cutting SKUs and trying to focus.

And then overall, just be honest and transparent about the ingredients. I think people love it. You see a lot of small shops, saying, “Made with local wheat” or “Chicken sandwich made from local chicken farm.” Because as we mentioned in the previous weeks, Gen Z and that population want to know where their food comes from and how it’s made.

Authenticity and transparency, I think, are strong to build consumer trust. And keep up with the trends, stay up to date, like we’ve seen with ABA or all the trade shows that we go to. We often see new ingredients and new techniques. I think it’s important to stay up to date and incorporate whatever new things or new flavor you see and then try them in your products. Put in the R&D and put in the work because that’s the only way you can, in my opinion, stay competitive and appeal to changing consumer preferences.

Spencer: Definitely. Let’s talk about where flavor comes into play in the product development process itself, because taste is king. Where do you place that in the timeline of product development? Do you establish what the flavor is going to be and formulate around that? Or is it more that a great tasting product is just the end result of a great process that has other considerations? And then if that’s the case, what are those other considerations?

Charpentier: Very good point. First, I do agree with you, Joanie, taste to me really is king. And it’s a crucial aspect for any food product. The way I look at it is consumers will connect with our food through the experience of what it tastes like. As we mentioned earlier, you go back because you’re thinking about it. Quick side note: I’m a fan of the movie, Ratatouille. And you see the restaurant critic, named Anton, when he sits there on a chair and eats the ratatouille, it takes him back to his childhood. Great tasting food leaves a long-lasting impression with people.

There are others, like the texture, the appearance and nutritional value are also important. But the taste is important. I do believe that from a human standpoint, we’re using our senses to connect with people. I think taste is the most important and if a product only tastes great one time, and it is inconsistent in flavor and texture that can lead to people not liking. From an R&D standpoint, if it tastes good, how do you maintain the consistency of the taste? How do you ensure the ingredients you’re using create a unique taste?

If it’s, let’s say, if you produce honey bread. How do you rely on this once you get into shelf life? How do you ensure that taste will remain? That’s why it takes a lot of R&D to ensure the flavor, or the taste of the product, will not deteriorate especially when you use premium ingredients over time, and you have the proper packaging. And I think R&D in the product development process has to ensure that the flavor is prominent. So, how do you elevate that product to where the flavor would be there? And that’s where R&D will be resourceful by finding extracts strong natural flavors and those ways of enhancing the overall flavor and taste of the product to make every bite basically taste the same.

Because as we mentioned in previous weeks, part of premium is giving an experience along with the value to the consumers. I think there’s a lot of work, and we could be talking for hours about taste. I go back to a place, a bakery or restaurant, or buy a product because I think, if you think of a food you really love, you can almost remember what it tastes like. Then you can have your brain connected with it. There’s a lot of consideration to be put into how taste is being delivered in products.

Spencer: I want to now move from taste into texture. There are expectations that come with high quality baked goods in terms of texture. How are those expectations tied to specific products? I’m thinking about the density for cake, crumb structure for bread, even the texture of the crust of the bread or mouthfeel for cookies. How does a baker formulate to reach specific texture goals for a premium product?

Charpentier: In the premium category, as mentioned, consumers have a different level of expectation, other than saying, “I’m buying a cake and it’s a chocolate cake.” Now, when we talk about density of cake, let’s use the example of a premium moist chocolate cake. The texture expectation for someone buying a moist premium chocolate cake, then the first texture expectation consumers are going to have is that the cake is going to be moist, it’s going to be tender, it will have a velvety texture, a little bit of light, fluffy texture, so you don’t have to chew. But it’s dense enough for the crumb to hold the richness and the layers of chocolate mousse in the middle while delivering all the flavor.

In order to achieve that, it’s going to be required that, one, formulators are using high quality ingredients (chocolate ganache, maybe on the top, which is a little more fat texture, because fat is a great carrier to deliver overall flavor). But texture is a combination of attention to detail to ensure consistency. I keep bringing it back consistency, but overall, it is what the bakers will do to find the right balance of the cake density to create something that is the right texture and the right flavor. The desired density of a cake is going to vary, also based on the type of cake, the personal preference of the consumers and geographically, where are they located?

Again, there are differences. Pancake has a certain texture, and a premium pancake is going to have a certain texture that people target. An angel food cake is going to be expected as a premium. Angel food is expected to be light, fluffy and fresh. So, the density of the cake, a lot of it has to do with freshness or a perceived freshness, and each cake has its own unique density.

I know you mentioned bread. It is a little bit of a different category because density is a key structure to me. It’ll determine the quality of the bread. If you look at a baguette — and French bakers often will cut the baguette sideways and they say “Oh look at the crumb!” — and you will have larger pockets, but that is a premium baguette. And if you have been to IBIE or the bakery show in Paris where they have competitions of the best baguette, usually the best baguettes have lots of holes and are really opened up.

But in contrast, if you look at a manufacturer like Dave’s Killer Bread, and you’re a consumer buying that, and you see the crumb structure of a baguette that has lots of holes, you’re going to call and complain. So that’s not a good bread. Another great example is the English muffin, with the nooks and crannies. They’re looking for the holes in there. And that’s part of what makes the product premium.

So yes, to your point here, the crumb structure can be a determining factor of what is being perceived by the consumers as premium, based on the type of bread and examples we’re giving. Cookies is a category on its own. It’s kind of an impulse buy like cakes. They all have their own unique texture, and I think it varies greatly on the texture of cookies because what’s good about cookies and some bread but less so, is that cookies you can put almost any inclusions you want into it. It could be chunky inclusions, like pretzels and nuts that create a crunchy texture versus a simple cookie, a soft and chewy cookie or a Tollhouse chocolate chip cookie, which melts in your mouth.

But texture is still a very important aspect of product development for bakers because it will greatly impact the overall eating experience for people buying it, but overall, you see even on the retail side, the soft and chewy people love them. Or you see the cookies that when you travel on a plane, you get those little Lotus cookies that are crunchy, sweet and grainy. Each cookie has its own texture per se, and I think R&D formulators can create cookies that are delicious but they can create a different unique and appealing texture that will set them apart from the competition by just the wiliness to make it premium. I think with cookies, the texture is also dictated by the type of inclusion, and you can make a cookie that is worth $10 based on the type of inclusions in there. I love playing with cookies; they’re fun.

Spencer: I’m going to throw another one out there because this kind of comes from the conversation I had with this baker I had the other day … brioche. So, in my opinion, brioche, by its pure existence, is a premium product. I will order a hamburger on a menu, even if I didn’t come into a restaurant to get a hamburger, I will change and order and get a hamburger if it’s made on a brioche bun. I’m of the opinion that French toast should be made with brioche and nothing else. So, when you think about a product like that that just inherently has an expectation of premium just because it exists, how do you formulate something like brioche in terms of creating a texture that’s of premium quality?

Charpentier: I agree a brioche is premium by itself. I would say simply, don’t skimp on the ingredients. There’s a lot of brioches out there, and what I’ve seen in the industry is a lot of people want to make premium brioche but they’re afraid of making premium brioche, because it uses butter, milk and eggs. We are unfortunately in an industry where allergens are still an issue, but it starts with the premium ingredients.

And you raised an excellent point, brioche by itself, even for the French, isn’t an everyday purchase. We buy baguettes every day when you go to the local bakery. But when you buy a brioche, it is often on the weekend, when there was something special. We knew that it was different.

So, the key is don’t try to make your brioche the same way you’re making other products. And maybe consumers today in the US, because it’s a growing segment, they haven’t tried all the brioche. But if you try premium, high-level butter or high-level eggs, you will realize this is a treat. So, it’s about the value and the experience versus just having bread that says brioche on it, in my opinion.

Spencer: That totally makes sense. We are speaking specifically about commercially produced baked goods. So, what must a baker consider about the texture of a product when it’s part of an automated process?

Charpentier: When it comes down to commercially produced baked goods, bakers have to consider how the automated process will affect the texture of the final product. Because I believe that automation can be used to produce high-quality artisan bread. I think it’s important to make sure that the texture is consistent across a large volume. We talked about texture and taste, but automation and what I’ve learned from an R&D standpoint …

I had a boss for years that would say, when you work on a bench, you’ve done 90% of the work. Now the real work is to take the product from the bench to the line. That 10% is almost like running a marathon. The last part is the most challenging, and the most difficult to do. Because now you’re working with machines, and you’re working with different temperatures.

So, it’s important to set critical control points and allow real time measurement and data about the fermentation. It’s important to have proper training and education with the employees to the expectations of, “Hey, this is a premium product,” and again, monitoring and controlling the texture during the automated process. For example, winter vs. summertime. Packaging your bread a little too hot is going to change the texture, and it might soften it. Did you bake it properly, what’s the finished moisture of the product?

You have to have very tight specs for your product versus a product that you just say, “This is good enough.” When it gets to premium, it requires more attention to details, and TLC (tender love and care) to your product. That’s what I’ve learned. If people are paying more, we must put the effort and automated line in the bakery on the high volume to ensure that the customers are getting the same experience day in and day out.

It goes back to the brewing industry. If you go buy a specialty craft beer or chocolate malted and you really love the flavor, when you go buy it again, you want to make sure you get the same thing. And how do we do that as bakers? It’s more complex. We could talk for hours about it. But overall, those are the sort of key takeaway points that I would like to share.

Spencer: I like what you said about consistency because you’re right that you can nail a premium product. But if you don’t nail it the second time, then you got to go back to the drawing board. And so, automation does really play an important role in the consistency of a premium baked good. But more importantly than that is not forgetting the role of the baker in the process. Creating a premium baked good in an automated process is not a “set it and forget it” situation, right?

Charpentier: It’s going to require more work. I think often people tend to build lines where if you press a button, it pumps out a lot of burger buns, and they’re consistent. That’s great for the everyday market. But once you go to premium, it’s going to be determined by what is the value added or the “premiumness” that is added to your product and how do you maintain it? And I’ve seen bakers on full automation doing premium products, so I know it’s doable.

It’s similar to when you go to a small restaurant where they have two servers, and they can serve 60 people with two line cooks. Then you go to premium restaurants where you have 30 people in the kitchen, and the plates are all decorated. But you’re paying the price difference. You’re paying more premium for the fancy restaurant. And that’s where I think the service around it or the maintenance of the consistency of the product is going to be more crucial.

Spencer: And do you think this is what we talked about in that first episode, training must come into play? Do you think this is an aspect where automation can’t necessarily replace people? That there still has to be a level of training to understand how it all works together, the product development of a premium item and the automated process of the premium item? There must be a knowledge transfer to make sure is being produced at the highest possible quality?

Charpentier: Definitely, it’s super important. Because if you’re building more technical things, you need more technical people. Look at the technology we’re using today. Because I remember my dad, back in the day he would say, “Oh, if the TV breaks, I can fix it. It’s easy.” Nowadays with technology, nobody can fix it unless you have trained technicians, and you must send it away. So, it’s the same thing for baking.We’re accepting the new automation and new technology, but we must consider if we have moved the training to match the high level of automation that’s happening today.

Spencer: When you think about training, you must marry training on the equipment with training and product development. And even though those career paths run parallel and don’t really intersect at some point, they’re going to have to, right?

Charpentier: Yes, and especially when you’re thinking of automation for creating premium products. And then especially in terms of consistency, it’s optimization of all sides. And what I’ve seen from my personal experience is a lot of big, automated lines are being set up and everything is being done very well. But one thing that I’ve observed is we’re doing everything from an engineering standpoint and then it’s perfect.

And that will allow them to basically achieve the volume and the robots will do all the work. But once you bring more automation, it is going to automatically require highly trained technicians and also bakery experts to monitor the process because now you’re building more technical advancement. And that’s going to require more involvement from people and more training.

In my opinion, when we do this type of automation — yeah, engineering is great — but the bakery scientists and bakers should be part of the conversation when designing and reviewing an automated process, especially for premium. Because now we’re dealing with yeast, so there’s a biological aspect to it. So, we’re talking about science. When we deal with a kick, we’re talking about a leavening system through chemistry. So now we’re bringing big time science and if you think of engineering, engineering is not chemistry and engineering is not biology. I think we must think of marrying both to create the best.

And I’ve seen it on large scale automation in my past where sometimes, when it’s just engineering focused, then they must work all the issues later today. Because baking is all about time and temperature, and the bakers who do it every day, they know. I think it’s good to bring the bakers, to bring the biologists, the chemists and engineers together to have a better rate of success while creating premium products down the road.

Spencer: I totally agree with you, and I know a baker at a larger company, and her role is commercialization. Her background is bakery science. So, she is one of those who understands the chemistry and the science behind the formula. But she can look at what the bakery has in terms of automation and be able to say, “This will work on an automated line or not. We need to go back to the drawing board and figure it out.” I think there needs to be more roles like that, don’t you think?

Charpentier: 100%. I’ve been here in the US, doing what I’m doing for baking for the last 30 years, and I’ve seen the change where sometimes we’re focused on the throughput. And throughput, just focusing on that, with the machines, it’s not automatically giving you a premium. It’s throughput. What are you putting through? To get to that premium level, that’s where, based on your friend that you had a conversation with, it requires everybody’s involvement. I’ve seen back in the 90s where everybody would be involved.

I’ll share a story that I’ve heard from, when I was starting in the industry, it was at Entenmann’s Bakery, when Entenmann’s was still owned by Mr. Entenmann. They were saying they had a challenge where the engineers would make some type of a cherry cake and then the machine would pick the cake and put it in the box, but then it would slide and the headspace, and they could not figure it out, until they ask a baker say “What should we do?” And the guy said, “It’s easy. You just put a cherry on top of the cake.” The cherry basically created the space that no matter what the cream was in between the cake on top, would not smear on the packaging because the cherry was protecting the cake.

That’s a perfect example that if they had not brought the baker at the table, they would have never figured out how to do it or it would have been a costlier way to do it. I know for years that everybody involved at Entenmann that I met — that guy was long retired already — but he was considered a hero because he helped make a product successful by thinking of the small things that other people would not have thought of. So the moral of the story, get everybody involved, because you don’t know where your best idea is going to come from.

Spencer: Yeah, absolutely. And that’s such a great note to end on, Richard, and a great segue into next week’s episode, which is all around the look of the finished product for marketability and gaining a higher price point. So, I’m excited to dive into that with you next week. But for this week, thank you so much for your insight and wisdom around taste and texture.

Charpentier: Always a pleasure, Joanie, and we’ll see you next week.

Welcome to Season 7 of the Troubleshooting Innovation podcast. Joanie Spencer, editor-in-chief for Commercial Baking, speaks with Richard Charpentier, CMB, and CEO of consulting company Baking Innovation. Their conversation explores the technical aspects of creating high-quality, premium baked goods on a commercial scale. Sponsored by Puratos’ Sunset Glaze.

In this episode, Spencer and Charpentier unpack the key ingredient and formulating considerations for premium product development.

Learn more about this season here, and listen to Troubleshooting Innovation on Apple, Spotify, Google and Stitcher.

Joanie Spencer: Hi, Richard. Thanks for joining me again this week.

Richard Charpentier: Hey, Joanie. Great to be here.

Spencer: I’m excited about this episode because I feel like this is something that you feel pretty strongly about, and that is choosing the right ingredients.

Charpentier: Oh, yeah. Quality starts with the ingredients, I do agree.

Spencer: Right, and that’s actually my first question: A defining characteristic of a premium product is the ingredients, but what exactly does that mean?

Charpentier: It’s a perfect question to start off the podcast. For those who enjoy partaking in wine and being French, it sort of was born. But to me, it’s just as with wine, you do have different quality of wine and different price points. It’s similar to baking, you know, what ingredients do they use for wine? They will use grapes, and the fermentation process would differentiate the quality.

I think baking is the same thing. I do. Look at grapes from winemaking, the wheat and grains we use will vary greatly, depending on the region, climate, soils in which they’re grown. So, a baker could say, “Hey, I can bring different, locally grown grains, and we’re not talking 100%, but bring some to create something unique, to create a product with a superior quality compared to the competition.”

I was reading a book — I do a lot of research into all traditions of baking and dating back to the 17th century — there was an interesting article written in 1764 where they were complaining about the lack of quality. Back then, they used to do some testing to see what it was, and they realized that once you got just one ingredient, like one flour, and you made bread from locally, it was okay. But if you take from four different regions, you take the lowest quality flour and you blend it together, then you get a superior product.

I’m saying that to show that sometimes we tend to look at especially the number one ingredient when we’re talking about baking is flour. What do we do with the flour to ensure we get the best product? And that’s why I brought the wine analogy. That’s the way good quality wine starts. It starts with good quality grapes. So here, we tend to say, “As long as I have a flour, I’m good to go.” I do agree you can make a good quality product, but when you try to differentiate yourself and make premium and higher quality, I think it has to go a step further, and choosing the ingredients and looking at what the ingredients can affect your product, that’s where it’s important.

Then, you have to think as a baker, too, when choosing the right ingredients, are you storing them well, and to start thinking of ingredients as a part of the process and not just as a cost. That’s what I deal with with my customers. I agree cost is huge, but sometimes, if you pay a little more, what kind of premium can you sell it with, and what’s the bottom line for you? Just keep on doing. But  it takes for everybody to get involved to think about changes.

Spencer: Is it safe to assume, and this is this is my assumption, that upscaling a product requires more than just upscaling an ingredient or two? You have to go back to the beginning and really think about the R&D of it and not just “We’re going to make this premium by changing the flour or changing the fat.” Is that true?

Charpentier: Yeah, bringing anything new for an operation, especially as it is in most commercial bakeries today, it would require R&D and operations to really learn how to use the new ingredients. Because what we bakers want to do when we make products, we want to make sure we run without any problems. We have all the products at the end of the line in packaging and ready to be shipped out to our customers. If you bring new ingredients — for example, I’ve done a lot of work in high protein bread and played with hemp, chia, quinoa and amaranth — once you add a certain portion of those grains into your baking to make it more premium or make a protein claim, those ingredients are not just wheat flour. They don’t work the same way, they don’t absorb the same way, they don’t process the same way. A lot of them are non-gluten ingredients; therefore, it takes a little more care and love and dedication to bring those products in order to do them well.

That’s the big difference where you would require R&D’s involvement to test and ensure the good use of it. In R&D, we did thorough testing, where we would look at what happens to the product because bakeries get affected by time, temperature and the weather. We’ll try to mimic as best different conditions that we would know how that product will react. Because the worst is, as bakers, especially on a commercial level, when they say “All right, it works.” Then you start implementing the product, and you’re seeing different changes. Therefore, the inconsistency will create the product to no longer be high quality or premium, and that’s why it’s very crucial to have every hand on deck to ensure its success.

Spencer: Right? That’s kind of exactly what I was thinking, is that one ingredient change could impact the chemistry of the product, right?

Charpentier: A hundred percent. That’s why bakers are trying to stay within their own specs. But all ingredients, same as wine and grapes, they’re objected to the weather, to the crop changes to anything. So, their ingredients will get affected by the weather, by the pricing, and therefore, bakers constantly have to adjust. And that is crucial, especially today, as we’re talking about shelf life and waste. How do we ensure we’re not creating more problems? And that’s why, as you said, we have to ensure that if you get to the premium ingredients, ensure that it works well for your line, and get people involved and get maybe third parties or outside suppliers or consultants to come and help you out.

Spencer: Okay, so I’m thinking about how much more critical it is to consider waste when you’re making a premium product and using those higher quality ingredients. The word “premium” often translates to the word “expensive” not only for the consumer, but also the baker. Is that a myth? Or is that the truth and there are just caveats that come with it that you have to make sure you consider?

Charpentier: That’s a great point. I think it’s important to remember that “expensive” as we talked about, doesn’t necessarily mean “premium.” I think a premium product may cost more due to the higher quality ingredients and craftsmanship involved in the creation and the manufacturing. But I think the value of the product should still be apparent to the end consumers because at the end of the day, manufacturers can make a premium product, but the success of premium is going to be the consumer saying, “That’s premium to me.” And that’s where I think it takes a little thinking.

And, I think in fact, many consumers, we talked about the Gen Z, they’re willing to pay more for a premium product because they do value the quality and experience it provides or the story it gives. So, while there may be higher costs associated with a premium product, I think it’s important to focus on the real value that the product provides to the customers rather than just the price tag.

One of my analogies is: everybody’s driving a car, we all know that when you have certain cars, you have to put premium gasoline, because we know it’s better for the car. So therefore, we perceive that we’ll pay the extra $0.50, $0.60, sometimes $1 more for the gasoline because we know it’s better for the car. And, I think personally, the same is true for premium products. If your product is of quality and consistency, then premium at that point is no longer expensive.

Spencer: That’s a really good point. And it does sort of come down to price versus value, right?

Charpentier: Yeah, I think the value that is perceived. You have a certain place where people will go and line up. At Laduree, I went with my kids last time I was in Paris, you get little macaroons for $20, and you’re like, “What?” but everybody’s happy; therefore, the value is no longer the price. You initially think of the price when you wait in line, and you pay, but I think we have to re-educate people, and we’re willing to do it. And that’s why I use the example of gas. We don’t think twice when you have a nice car and then you have to get premium gasoline. Nobody’s thinking twice. They’ll be like, “Oh, wow. Went up again.” But you’re not going to go back for the cheaper one.

Spencer: Exactly. Okay, so I want to go back to that first episode. We kind of talked about it last week, too, just the difference between artisan and premium, and that you can have a premium product without it being artisan. But for commercial bakers who are manufacturing artisan products, what do they need to be thinking about to elevate the quality of their commercially produced artisan products? What are the key considerations beyond just changing the ingredient list?

Charpentier: Great, great, great point. If a baker says, “I want to get more premium and artisan baker; I want to be more premium; I want to elevate the overall value of the quality perceived by the customers,” my approach to it is fermentation. Fermentation can do wonders for you. Again, going back to what we talked about in previous weeks on the beer manufacturers. Why are you willing to pay $12 at a restaurant for craft beer? Because it’s made with chocolate malt or it’s a fancy name? I think the artesian bakers can do the same.

In my work with Baking Innovation, I have done a lot of work on sourdough fermentation, and what I’ve found that is how to elevate by doing a proper fermentation bread with wild yeast, as what we call natural yeast, nothing added, I’m getting a shelf life of two weeks. So that’s what I would say, for artisans to use the power of fermentation to your advantage. Again, it’s easier said than done because it takes a program, and then you’re not changing the ingredients. But you’re using the current ingredients you have, and you’re maximizing the efficiency or the benefits that ingredient has by working it differently. So that means it’s really changing, and hopefully people will be like, “Oh, yeah, that makes sense.”

It’s really rethinking what you do with the product versus just trying to get the product out. It’s almost like working out and sometimes you have a coach saying, “No, work out this way,” and you start seeing different results. And that would be, to me, more of a “Sit down; let’s discuss ways,” but I do think that fermentation, and then as we hear about gut health and people more conscious about eating better and a microbiome, there’s a health halo around sourdough fermentation. I would definitely recommend for bakers, which I’ve done here locally, to not change everything but try to do small sourdough production. And some people have been successful doing that.

Spencer: I think one sort of standard setter in that regard, at least in my opinion, is La Brea Bakery from Aspire Bakeries. You know, they started out as a small artisan bakery in L.A. and now they are a major manufacturer of sourdough. And they really focused on maintaining that fermentation time. I know there are other mid-size bakeries. One was a guest in our previous season of Troubleshooting Innovation, and that’s Chabaso Bakery up in Connecticut. And they’re the same way. They do not stray from their quality standards and the time that it takes to make artisan bread but doing it at scale. It can be done, but like we talked about in that first episode, it’s commitment.

Charpentier: It’s commitment, and what I’ve learned is, in the industry and for those listening, it’s that quality and consistency sells. You can have the best marketing team and the best packaging and the best whatever, but quality and consistency no matter what you do, and you will see at the retail level, you see the trends, people will go back. Once they know it’s worth it, price is no longer an issue.

Spencer: Absolutely. Do you think that there are particular products that can more easily lend themselves to increasing quality or garnering a higher price point? And we kind of talked about that a little bit last week, but I guess I’m asking it today from a formulating standpoint. Are there products that you can tinker with the formula or tinker with the ingredient list to increase the quality? Are there certain products that lend themselves to more trial and error with R&D for increasing the quality?

Charpentier: The products that tend to lend themselves for increasing quality or garnering a higher price point as you mentioned, I think anything within … we talked about the sweet goods. Sweet goods are a little easier to put on a cake and say, “Our cake is fantastic. But now we’re going to take a chocolate ganache or take a Tahitian vanilla and add other things around it to increase the quality of the product.” And not only the name, but as a consumer, if you bite into it, you’ll be like, “Wow, this is amazing.”

You want to drive the customers or the people experiencing your product into the product where now they’re thinking, “I’m getting a good value; I’m getting an experience.” It will take some R&D ingredients. But for example, if you use a regular granulated sugar, and you say, “You know what? I’m going to improve. There’s a local honey producer, and I’m going to start using honey.” Well, honey comes as a more expensive item, more difficult to handle. How do you keep your honey to prevent crystallizing or getting solid?

So, there’s a lot of things where R&D, as you go there, will have to get involved in helping out along the way. It’s not just as easy as to say, “We’ll put in the ingredients, it’ll be better.” But as you have more ingredients … I’ve read some data as a side note that based on USDA, 30% to 40% of the food we manufacture ends up in the landfill. As you go with premium, you might have to think about minimizing waste and how we approach the distribution.

Spencer: Definitely. And I mean, when you’re upscaling to premium shelf life, and we talked about it a little bit, sometimes shelf life can come into play.

Charpentier: I’ve worked a lot on shelf life and extended shelf life in my career. I was fortunate enough to do that. But we were able to, at certain points, still have premium and have the proper shelf life. It would require tons of episodes of podcasting to tell it, not just in one podcast. But as you upscale, just understand that if you look at your current returns or look at your current shelf life, what are the issues with shelf life?

Look at your current production, because now if you just stick ingredients and change the quality of ingredients, if you already have flaws within your production line, that means bringing premium ingredients, your waste will go up; and therefore, it would not be sustainable. And maybe the channels, as we said, the foodservice versus the retail, how do you push these new products and how can you ensure that consumers getting it after the distribution will get the same experience as it was designed or formulated to be?

Spencer: Okay. So, this next question, after all of our conversations so far, what are the challenges and benefits with each in terms of either adding a high-quality ingredient to an existing formula, or removing or swapping an ingredient?

In a previous episode, you talked about just adding high-quality chocolate chips to a cake versus swapping out the butter for a higher quality imported butter for a laminated baked good or adding an egg wash. There’s adding things like an egg wash or adding things like chocolate chips, and then there’s substituting or replacing an ingredient for a higher-quality ingredient. What are the benefits and challenges that come with each of those strategies?

Charpentier: Great, great, great question. Let’s talk about the benefits. Benefits, as we’ve been talking about over the last few weeks, benefits are, “Are you upscaling your ingredient list?” If you go from a cake, and it says you’re using chocolate chips and now you’re going with real chocolate, chocolate chip is a is a compound. And if you go with real chocolate, then handling real chocolate is a challenge because it might melt a different point. Does it work within your current process? So those are the challenges coming in. With real chocolate, can you store your real chocolate? Do you have enough refrigerated space to do it?

Similar to butter. A lot of bakers have gone to ingredients, as you say, they’re trying to upscale say, “Hey, I’m going to do my cakes with butter.” Butter is excellent, but the shelf stability of the ingredients you’re bringing in has to be carefully checked. Now that we’re dealing with butter, you can’t just sit your butter in your bakery. As we all know, bakeries tend to be very hot, and what happens if you put butter as you’ve done it in the summertime in your kitchen? It starts melting. You’re going to have to have more guidelines and more controls around bringing premium ingredients in the case of butter.

But let’s say you’re saying, “I want to bring a premium French flour to the US and make the best baguette I can.” It’s doable, but you have to ensure that your supply chain is proper. So, ensure the supply of whatever you’re going with, ensure that if it’s not that, find a secondary supplier, one or two would be my recommendation, at least two, and ensure that you’re following the vendor or the suppliers directions on how to handle their products properly because every product — and bakers listening will know — will say, “Keep within a room between whatever degree to x degree. “Rotate your products differently. It’s going to require a little more thorough thinking and involvement than just saying, “All right, this is an ingredient, we get it, we put it into mixer.”

Spencer: Yeah, that makes sense. Okay, so I have one more question for you today, and it’s another sort of myth-busting question for me. There are a lot of assumptions that come with the term “clean label.” And I guess by assumptions, I’m saying consumer assumptions. When they hear things are clean label or have a short ingredient list, they automatically assume that means that it’s a higher quality.

If you’re specifically thinking of a commercially produced baked good, is there truth to that? Because it seems like that is an oversimplification. It seems like there’s got to be more to it than just, “Simplifying the label makes it premium.” What are your thoughts on that?

Charpentier: I think clean label — again, it’s a word, it’s almost like natural — there’s no true definition from the FDA that says, “This is what clean label is all about, and this is how you have to do clean label” We’re seeing retailers like Whole Foods who will have a list of what’s considered for the clean label. So, I think clean label is based on the brand, based on the manufacturer or based on the product being made. And it’s a separation. It could be a clean label item, but is this a premium product? And I think there’s a wall between both of them. You could make a clean label product, but it’s not a premium item. And how do you how do you differentiate that? I think the myth is, yeah, there’s a lot of confusion where people will say, “Oh, we removed three ingredients and now it’s clean label, so therefore, we can dictate a premium price.” I think it’s a myth. And I think consumers will be the one dictating what’s premium versus just clean label.

Spencer: Okay, that’s what I was thinking, too, so thanks for validating my thoughts. Okay, Richard, those are all my questions for today’s episode. Thank you so much for diving into some of the things that bakers really need to consider when they’re choosing ingredients for a high-quality premium formula. This was really an interesting conversation.

Next week, we’re going to take a look at taste and texture and really focus on what it takes to upgrade taste and texture for premium baked goods. So, I’m excited to get into that with you. And so, for today, I will just say thank you again, and I look forward to visiting with you next week.

Charpentier: Thank you. Always a pleasure talking to you, Joanie, and talk to you next week. Thank you.