Welcome to Season 10, Episode 4, of the Troubleshooting Innovation podcast. Joanie Spencer, editor-in-chief for Commercial Baking, is spending this season with Julie Miller Jones, a member of the Grain Foods Foundation Scientific Advisory Board, and Charlotte Martin, registered dietitian and consultant for the Grain Foods Foundation. They’re debunking bread myths to help bakers develop delicious, healthy grain-based products — and help them educate consumers on the health benefits of bread. Sponsored by Lallemand.

In this episode, we discover how commercial bread bakers can bust bread myths through sandwich innovation.

Learn more about this season here, and listen to Troubleshooting Innovation on Apple, Spotify and Google.

Joanie Spencer: Hi Julie and Charlotte. Thanks so much for joining me again this week.

Julie Miller Jones: Nice to be with you.

Charlotte Martin: Thanks for having us again.

Spencer: So, I was in my 20s in the ’90s, and I was a product of the show Friends. And when I think about a sandwich innovation, I think about Joey Tribbiani. So, I’m going to call this the Joey Tribbiani episode. I also love sandwiches, so I am excited to have this conversation with you both about how sandwiches can be a game changer for breaking through consumer misconceptions.

Over the past three weeks, we’ve unpacked a lot of these misconceptions about bread. I think we’ve learned that a lot of times, it’s important to consider bread’s role and larger meal items like sandwiches.

I want to kick this conversation off by asking why it’s important to consider what’s between the slices when thinking about some of these factors that we’ve talked about so far, such as sodium, sugar and other things like that.

Martin: I think that’s a great question. When it comes to the nutritional aspect, some sandwiches can be a lot less healthy due to things like high sodium, processed meats, and then excessive condiments and spreads. This can certainly lead to a sandwich being very high in sodium and added sugar. I had mentioned this in a previous episode, but for example, a 2-ounce serving of sliced deli honey ham can have 500 to 600 milligrams of sodium for just two ounces. Rarely do people stick to just two ounces so that sodium can add up.

On the flip side, you can make a highly nutritious sandwich. That would be by featuring things such as lean proteins like cooked chicken breast, fiber-rich vegetables and healthy fats as spreads like avocado or hummus instead of packing on the mayo. Then really just opting for a home-prepared sandwich is when you can put yourself in control. You get to control the bread, the serving size, and what and how much goes between those slices.

Spencer: Charlotte, do you ever steer people toward certain types of bread when they’re building sandwiches?

Martin: Generally, I do. I tend to steer them towards whole grain breads for the most part, but I make it clear that both types, enriched and whole grains, can be and should be part of a balanced diet, but provided that they try to stick with whole grains for the most part.

Spencer: Right. Julie, I want to tap into your food science perspective on this. What would you say is the key to pairing the right bread for a sandwich in terms of thinking from the food science side? How does that hold up to the filling of a sandwich while also providing benefits for health?

Miller Jones: I think it depends on when you’re going to eat the sandwich. If you’re talking about packing one in a lunch, you might want to think about not so much the kind of bread but using something like a fat-based barrier. You want the fat to deliver nutrients with things such as peanut butter or hummus. They’ll have fiber and protein along with preventing the bread from getting soggy.

Another strategy is just to have a separate bag or wax paper for the juicy things like tomatoes so that they aren’t sitting there all day until you get to lunch and soaking the bread.

Denser breads or breads with more fat, like croissants, may indeed be better. I have trouble recommending those regularly because there are so many more calories and higher in fat in the case of croissants.

The dietary guidelines say to make happier grains whole. One way to do that is if you really like white bread, make one white and one whole grain. It looks attractive, fun and different, and you have half of your grains whole.

Spencer: That’s a great idea. I’m seeing a lot of brands selling half loaves. So, then it allows consumers to mix and match with their sandwiches, I like that.

Miller Jones: If you buy the whole loaf, you can divide it yourself. I’m in a two-person family, so we take part of the loaf and freeze it and usually divide it into thirds. That way the bread is always fresh when you need it because freezing is so much better than refrigerating, because refrigerating stales the bread and freezing doesn’t. You want the bread at room temperature or frozen. You don’t want it in that middling ground, which does prevent mold, but promotes staling. It gives you a tougher crumb.

Spencer: This seems like there’s an opportunity here for messaging on packaging. I don’t often see bread brands giving storage suggestions, such as “Here’s how you can extend the life of your bread: put it in the freezer and not the refrigerator.”

Miller Jones: I realized that if you’re in a small apartment, you may not have the freezer space. But it really is a way to have the nicest crumb. What happens when you put the bread in the refrigerator, the starch molecules in the bread crumb come together. And that’s what makes it tough or stale. What you want is to have a more tender crumb, freezing stops that.

Spencer: We’re talking about sandwiches, and I’m going to bring something up that I found to be a little bit unsettling. There is this rhetoric out there, and it’s called “the sandwich problem.” The Wall Street Journal ran an article where it called sandwiches the saboteur of the American diet. This is a blanket statement.

Miller Jones: It’s clickbait. It drives me crazy because it’s clickbait. You could say soups are the most dangerous thing in the American diet. I just looked up one common company that sells soups, sandwiches, salads and coffee. The average sandwich has about 360 calories depending, as Charlotte said, it’s how much meat you put in it. I say that people should use their jaw meter.

If you’re widening your jaw to get the sandwich in your mouth, you’ve probably got a sandwich that’s got too much filling in it, creating the sandwich problem. We could say we have a pasta problem because you can go into these restaurants and can order a sandwich that has over 2,000 calories and 2,000 milligrams of sodium, but I can order a pasta that does the same thing or be even higher.

The question is, should we eat the amount of either of those that is being served to you, because many times these are ginormous. They should be shared, particularly for people like me, where I don’t need many calories now. Even for the average person on the 2,000-calorie diet, you can’t blow two-thirds of your calorie allotment on a single sandwich, a single pasta, or on a single anything. To just say that the sandwich is dangerous isn’t true. It’s what choices we make in the diet and that’s what is the saboteur of the diet. It made a lot of buzz in the article, but it bothered me.

Martin: Just to add that, a blanket statement like that is problematic because, as we mentioned, sandwiches can be a very nutritious, convenient and affordable meal option. I’ve seen some bread options that can provide you with 6 or 7 grams of fiber and upwards of 10 grams of protein for your sandwich just from the bread alone. If you add some lean protein and then layer in lots of vegetables and healthy fats, you could get upwards of a third or even maybe almost half of your daily fiber needs from a sandwich and a significant chunk of protein, too.

Miller Jones: I think you need to think about getting two of your bread and cereal servings in a sandwich. The objective, I think, is to get two of your fruit and vegetable servings. This can be fruit, for instance, peanut butter with banana and raisins or grated carrot. There are all kinds of creative ways to put vegetables into the sandwich.

That’s one of the ways we fall down so badly, we don’t get enough fiber. Under 5% of us eat the amount of fiber that we’re supposed to. And less than a third eat the number of fruits and vegetables. We aren’t eating the right number of grains, and we aren’t eating the right amount of fruits and vegetables. That’s why we’re in trouble. We’re in trouble, not because of the sandwich, but because of everything else we do.

Spencer: It seemed just a little bit shocking to me because obviously, I don’t think anyone in this conversation subscribes to any elimination type of diet. After all, it’s not healthy or safe, unless there’s a physical response, such as celiac. It’s not a good idea to eliminate one particular food type from your diet.

Then the thing that was a little bit alarming to me was that this is taking it a step further because “sandwiches” are extremely broad. This statement could be anything, we could be talking about white bread and bologna, or we could be talking about whole grains and almond butter. I mean, to make such a blanket statement, that was what was shocking to me, to say that sandwiches in general were a little bit crazy to me.

Miller Jones: I couldn’t agree more. I think this blaming of one thing that this is what’s causing us to be fat, it’s causing hypertension or whatever, is never going to get us to solve the problem. It just causes us to chase red herrings.

Spencer: So, on one hand we’ve Wall Street Journal using the term sandwich problem, but on the other hand, there’s research saying that roughly half of Americans eat a sandwich every day. When you put those two together, it sounds like there’s an opportunity here from a product development standpoint and a marketing standpoint. With the Grain Foods Foundation participating in the Build a Better Sandwich initiative, how do you ladies see this being able to build up bread for industry and for consumers?

Miller Jones: I think that one of the things that has been a missed opportunity in terms of education and publicity is that bread is simply not a platform in which you get the other things into your mouth. Bread, as Charlotte mentioned, has all these nutrients. But even if we take a simple sandwich with the right amount of meat in it, what happens when you eat those two together is that the iron in the meat, the myoglobin, pulls the iron from the bread and makes it more available. It increases the total amount of iron. It’s one plus one equals three, and I think people don’t know that.

I think people don’t know that protein in bread is incomplete. But if I put it with the protein in hummus, which is also incomplete, I now have a complete protein from two inexpensive plant sources. I think those are the kinds of messages that the bread industry can use, and maybe even partner with the legume industry or the hummus industry to show how this helps in a sustainable plant-forward diet that is portable and doesn’t, in many cases, require refrigeration. That’s why it’s so popular to carry within a lunch. There are many kinds of opportunities to do that.

Martin: Incorporating sandwiches into a healthy lifestyle can be straightforward and enjoyable. We talked about the fillings quite a bit now, but also consider portion sizes. A sandwich can be very filling and nutritious without being oversized like we’re so used to right now.

One way to control the size is, of course, to make it yourself and then also how you balance your sandwich-containing meals. So, balancing it with the side of fruits or vegetables rather than what we traditionally serve sandwiches with, like high-calorie chips or fries. I think by following some of these easy guidelines, you can make sandwiches a delicious and very healthy part of any diet.

Miller Jones: You can also even appeal to a high end. For instance, crostini or bruschetta are open-face sandwiches that bring vegetables, they’re interesting, and they’re fun. As an alternative to a chip and a fat-laden dip, this might be a terrific answer. Just think about it differently.

Spencer: I think a lot of bakers are increasing their efforts to educate consumers about how they can use their products in a good sandwich or using their products in a good way. Whether it’s getting adventurous from a culinary perspective or how they use bread in a healthy diet. This is where I’ve kind of seen social media being used positively.

Charlotte, I hope you see that as well. Where bakery brands are using social media to share recipes and provide sandwich ideas for consumers. I even know of one bakery brand that has launched a cookbook. They’re a specialty bread company, and they launched a cookbook for all different sandwich ideas and recipes. If you put that together with Build a Better Sandwich, how can this industry promote sandwich culture as part of healthy eating?

Martin: I think that cookbook is a great idea. What I have noticed just looking at different brands’ Instagram pages, a lot will do some nice and very colorful sandwich imagery. I think that’s helpful. I also noticed some images where the sandwich is incorporated as part of a meal with something like a salad, so it’s not just the sandwich. I think that highlights that a sandwich can be part of a healthy, balanced diet.

Some other things that I’ve seen that I think are great is one bread brand broke down the ingredients in one of their whole grain breads and had a nice little infographic about the different ingredients. They had a couple of seeds in there and some whole grain flours that aren’t normally used and did a nice little infographic on that. I think consumers like to see that and learn more about the ingredients in the bread.

Miller Jones: To add on to that, I think to explain to consumers, using an infographic as an example, of why polysorbate 60 might be in your bread, which is eye-opening.

Martin: I haven’t seen that, Julie. So, it’d be nice if some of them would tackle that.

Miller Jones: Because it’s an emulsifier. What it does is it takes French bread, which lasts a day because it has four ingredients in it, with the various kinds of crumb softeners, polysorbate is one of those, you can extend the shelf life. That makes it less expensive, and it makes it more sustainable. I was upset with the bread manufacturers a while back because one of the bloggers wrote that this compound was the same compound that was in yoga mats. You may remember that incident.

Spencer: Yes.

Miller Jones: So breadmakers rushed to take it out, and I thought that was the wrong strategy. It said to the consumer, “We’ve been putting this in, and we’ve been not telling you about it. And now we know it’s bad, and we are taking it out,” instead of saying “It is here and this is the reason.”

To compare the amount that is in bread to the amount that is in a yoga mat is beyond silly. Breadmakers need to be proud of every single ingredient that’s there, be able to explain why it’s there and know that it is not harmful so that they can counter the adverse messages that you might get from a not-well-informed blogger.

Spencer: That’s a great point. You’re bringing back Food Babe PTSD. But that is such a good point, because there is this general mistrust of food manufacturing and big food brands. There’s this just inherent distrust that consumers sometimes for no reason have. That is a good point to increase the transparency instead of just taking it out.

I think that was around 10 years ago, and I think social media has evolved so quickly over those past 10 years. I think baking companies have learned a lot of lessons about proactive communication versus reactive. That way you don’t necessarily have to reformulate if you can justify your formulation to begin with.

Miller Jones: Even now, the crazy ultra-processed food that we talked about; the system arbitrarily picked foods that had any additive or more than five ingredients. I think this is a perfect opportunity to talk about more than five ingredients might make it more nutritious because we’re adding nutrients. More than five ingredients makes it more sustainable. More than five ingredients make a banana walnut item that might be delicious. Breadmakers need to be out front and say, “There is no science behind five ingredients. This is why we’re putting these things here, and it helps you.”

Spencer: That is such good advice. I do have to say, I just want to applaud the industry for a minute, because I think we have come a long way. There was this sentiment that baking companies needed to be behind the scenes and be under the radar. Especially from a B2B standpoint, we don’t ever want our competitors to know what we’re doing.

We don’t want to reveal our formulas, nobody needs to know what’s going on behind the scenes, especially if they’re supplying a restaurant. I think the industry has come such a long way in transparency. We still have a long way to go, but I do think we’re heading in the right direction. I think a lot of companies are catching on to the importance of pulling back that proverbial curtain and showing there’s nothing to be afraid of with these products. They’re actually very good for you.

Martin: I think also giving their food scientists and bakers a voice, especially in the marketing and the social media. is a great idea, especially if they are working with food scientists who understand how and why those ingredients are there and can speak to them. I think that could be very helpful in educating consumers.

Spencer: Speaking of education, something else that I’ve seen the Grain Foods Foundation do well, is address the industry’s workforce, because they work in the industry, but they’re also consumers. When they’re just going to work every day, sometimes they have this separation between what they’re doing in a manufacturing facility and what they’re eating at home.

I participated in the webinar that you two presented to Lallemand’s workforce. I was so impressed with some of the comments that were coming in on the chat, people who work in this industry were saying “Wow, I didn’t think about this this way.” “This is really interesting.” “You’re opening my eyes.” How do you think internal communication is helping the industry communicate to their end consumers and why is it important?

Martin: I think these internal education initiatives are so important because by educating their employees about the science and nutrition related to their products, they’re empowering their workforce to be more knowledgeable and engaged.

I think this not only enhances the quality of the products that they work on and sell but also fosters a deeper understanding of consumer needs and health trends. I believe employees who are well informed about the health aspects and also the culinary versatility of their products can then better advocate for them and provide valuable insights that can continue to drive innovation and improvement.

Miller Jones: In addition, I think you can make the employee feel proud and defend their product and be proud of what they’re doing.

Spencer: And then also when you think about the shortage in the workforce, I think that it also creates this sense of pride in their jobs and what they’re doing. It creates this connection to their employer so that they are outwardly touting the benefits of the product that they make, but then they feel very connected to that product, and they feel proud to get up every morning and go to work and that’s helping build up the workforce and build that loyalty in the workforce that we need so much right now.

I’m going to close with another ethereal question. I love to just sort of sit back and dream with you both. With all of this conversation around sandwiches and these collective efforts and looking at it from all these different perspectives. Do you think these collective efforts can come together and turn the tide on how people view bread?

Martin: Possibly. I think we really need to get over this low-carb trend first, but I think it’s possible. I think it is working on that innovation piece, but just consumer education and marketing. I think they could change their perspectives. I think there are a few bread companies who are working on that and doing a great job of it. So, I do think it’s possible.

Miller Jones: My ace in the hole is a study that came out published in The Lancet which is the equivalent of the Journal of the American Medical Association in Britain. It’s a review of prospective studies of hundreds of thousands of people, and those people who ate a diet with 50 to 52% of their calories coming from carbohydrates, including bread, lived for four years longer than if they ate keto or less carbohydrates, such as the low carb diet. Living longer should mean a lot to a lot of people. I think that’s compelling data and if we could only get that information out, that might help turn the tide.

Spencer: Yes, that’s a good point. Let’s be honest, this episode is about sandwiches and there’s just not as much joy to be had on a sandwich that has a piece of lettuce rather than two slices of bread.

Well, that wraps up our Joey Tribbiani episode around sandwiches and how bread makers can use sandwich innovation to bust myths with consumers.

Next week will be our last episode, and we are going to talk about a very important topic and that is women’s health. I don’t think that a lot of consumers understand the vital role that grain foods can play in women’s health. So, I’m very excited to dive into that topic with you next week. For now, I just want to say thank you for your time, and your insight and for yet another great conversation.

Martin: Thanks, Joanie.

Welcome to Season 10, Episode 3, of the Troubleshooting Innovation podcast. Joanie Spencer, editor-in-chief for Commercial Baking, is spending this season with Julie Miller Jones, a member of the Grain Foods Foundation Scientific Advisory Board, and Charlotte Martin, registered dietitian and consultant for the Grain Foods Foundation. They’re debunking bread myths to help bakers develop delicious, healthy grain-based products — and help them educate consumers on the health benefits of bread. Sponsored by Lallemand.

In this episode, we’re debunking assumptions around sodium levels and processing concerns.

Learn more about this season here, and listen to Troubleshooting Innovation on Apple, Spotify and Google.

Joanie Spencer: Hi, Julie and Charlotte. Thanks so much for joining me again this week.

Charlotte Martin: Thank you for having us again.

Spencer: We’ve had a couple of really lively discussions around a few myths, and this week, we are going to tackle two more: sodium and processing.

Bread has baking’s, and maybe just food in general’s, most basic formula: flour, water, salt and yeast. But one of those four ingredients has a pretty bad reputation among health-conscious consumers and some medical professionals. Since you both are well versed in this, I would love to get both of your thoughts on sodium in general. Where are we with sodium?

Julie Miller Jones: Unfortunately, most people in the US eat at what is called the upper level, rather than what is recommended. Some people consume over 3,700 milligrams of sodium a day, the recommendation is 2,300 milligrams. or those people with medical issues, it is down to 1,500 milligrams, which is very difficult to do. You need to use a lot of strategies; my big strategy is to put the saltshaker away mostly and herb it up. Enjoy all the flavors that can come from herbs and spices.

Sodium is a problem, but interestingly, it’s only a problem to about a third of us. Between 20% and 30% of people are what we call “salt-sensitive,” and another 10% to 20% are what we call “reverse salt-sensitive” in that if they don’t get the sodium, they have problems. They’re going for the middle by the recommendations, but there’s been heated debates in the research community about where this should be because I can’t look at you and say, “You’re sodium sensitive, and you’re not.” There is this general push by the WHO, FDA and others to try to lower our sodium intake. The way they’re trying to lower it is not to harm the people that actually can tolerate more salt, addressing those 4,000 milligrams a day is not good.

Martin: I’ve seen lately this big push for everyone to eat more salt, which I think is crazy. As it pertains to bread, this is a common myth that it should be avoided if you’re monitoring your sodium intake. This is because sodium content in bread can vary significantly among different types and brands. Also, not all breads are high in sodium, there are lower sodium options available. Most breads, on average, I believe contain between about 100 to 200 milligrams of sodium per slice, and that’s well within the daily recommended limit of 2,300 milligrams.

It can be part of a balanced diet if you are closely monitoring your sodium intake. And again, I know I keep saying this every episode, but it’s more about considering the overall sodium content of what you’re serving bread with. I looked this up right before this, the slice deli meats you can buy at the grocery store for sandwiches a 2 ounce serving, which no one is sticking to, has 500 to 600 milligrams of sodium in just that small serving.

The average person is probably consuming double that, plus other high sodium condiments. That sodium can add up and most of that is not even coming from the bread. Again, it’s about the whole of your diet, the whole of your meals. But you can certainly include bread in a diet, even if you’re monitoring your sodium intake.

Miller Jones: If you’re at a fast-food chain, you might want to think about choosing an option that isn’t the super stuff, triple-double burger with bacon and all the sauces, because that contains what the government recommends you eat in sodium in a day. Ask for extra tomato or extra lettuce, these are very low-sodium foods. There are ways that you can still participate and go to these fast food chains, but there are ways to make it better for you. I tell them to give me as many tomatoes as they’re willing to give me. But unfortunately, it’s the bread that gets blamed. It’s guilt by association rather than actual guilt by facts.

Spencer: Sure, it makes me think about how people replace the bread with a lettuce wrap and then pack a bunch of sodium-packed deli meat inside the lettuce and think they are going to be fine.

Miller Jones: Some of the sauces are very high in sodium, so that is something you need to look at. Try to get flavor by using spices and herbs, that was one of the things when I taught beginning foods to dieticians, we would try to see how could we make this taste alluring without using a lot of salt?

Spencer: I kind of live by your mantra, Julie. I put the saltshaker away when I’m cooking and use spices. My mother didn’t cook with salt, so I don’t cook with salt. However, if I bake something, I never skip the salt because you can’t change anything in a recipe when you’re baking because it will change the outcome. Manufactured baked goods are the same way, and salt plays an integral role in bread production.

Miller Jones: You can leave it out of any cake or cookie. The kind of recipe where salt is really important is in breadmaking. If it’s a yeast-raised product, it controls the rate at which the yeast grows, and it also controls abnormal fermentations that would give you an off flavor, perhaps even a microorganism you don’t want to ingest. There is a base level of sodium that’s needed in a yeast product which is not needed in the biscuit and cookie kind of product, so those you can leave the sodium or salt out. Then, you can look for baking powders that are calcium-based, not sodium-based, which helps our calcium intake. There are ways even with biscuit and cookie products where you can lower the sodium.

Spencer: How do you successfully formulate to have the lowest possible amount of sodium that you can have without impacting the product quality or the product taste? Is there a way to formulate around it? Can you add other health benefits to offset sodium concerns?

Miller Jones: Many of the products may have more salt than the level that’s necessary. That’s easily available on the web, what amount you would need per 100 grams of flour or 100 pounds of what the baking industry recipe is.

Beyond that, it’s so important in terms of what it does for the fermentation, that what you want to do is work with your diet as a whole so that the things that require sodium to make it healthy and safe get the amount that is required. Then, you control it by controlling the amount of sodium you add to the other foods in your diet.

Spencer: That kind of goes to Charlotte’s point that we’re not talking about massive amounts of sodium. You can consume a reasonable amount of bread in a day and stay well within the recommended daily sodium intake.

Miller Jones: I think the only problematic things Charlotte mentioned are some of the sandwich fillings are very high, pizza toppings and then cheese. Cheese is another thing that to make a successful cheese, you have to have salt. Avoiding extra cheese, in ways like trying to buy your popcorn with no salt, and then flavor it with herbs or something like that. There’s a variety of strategies to address it. I think addressing it when the manufacturer goes as low as they can and still maintains a safe fermentation is the sweet spot.

The myth comes from statements from the USDA that say, the No. 1 source of sodium in your diet is bread and cereals, and that is true because we eat those so frequently. Remember, I told you about 50% of our calories. I like to sort between staple grain-based foods like bread and indulgent grain-baked foods, which we eat a lot of. Those are the ones that I would really encourage people to find options such as unsalted popcorn or things where they can have the snack, but you do it without so much sodium.

Spencer: Let’s go back to this very simple formula: flour, water, salt and yeast. It’s simple, but manufactured breads also get a really bad rap, and it’s often around this term that consumers are picking up on and that’s “ultra-processed.” What are you both hearing from consumers, conversations that you’re having with bread producers, or through GFF, around these assumptions that people are making about processed bread? Is there even such a thing as “ultra-processed?”

Martin: This is another common myth. I’m seeing this word “ultra-processed” all over. This is another common myth that bread is ultra-processed and therefore bad for you. There’s no denying or hiding that bread is a processed food. I don’t even really know if there’s a standard definition of ultra-processed food because it’s not based on current scientific evidence.

So unfortunately, this classification often includes foods that have been intentionally formulated and processed to have a positive impact on health. It’s important that consumers realize that this label of “ultra-processed” doesn’t inherently mean unhealthy. We really can’t say that all of these are unhealthy in the same way that we can’t say that all less processed foods are healthy and nutritious. Some foods undergo processing for very legitimate health-conscious reasons, like ensuring safety, extending shelf life, or even contributing to the food structure and texture.

An example of this is the role of salt in bread. It’s not just about flavor, but also preservation and texture. We just need to continuously remind consumers that bread can provide them with valuable nutrients that are beneficial for overall health. It’s important to understand the nuances of these processed foods like bread.

Miller Jones: The tragedy of the common is that a public health professional named Montero from Brazil, who is on the FAOWHO board and wrote the Brazilian dietary guidelines. He and his colleagues determine the categorization, which has not been adopted by the rest of the world, it places all bread with more than five ingredients, and by his definition, as ultra-processed. Unfortunately, his definition is the one that’s being used for all the research headlines that are saying ultra-processed food causes depression and infertility.

The crazy thing, which Charlotte alluded to, is that it puts whole grain bread in the same category as Coca-Cola. But it’s also in the same category as infant formula and things like Glucerna, which are specially formulated to help a diabetic. His categorization makes me crazy. Nonetheless, it’s what the public health people are using and public health people from prestigious universities in this country are citing all this work and using his categorization for the research. That’s one of the problems that’s promoting this myth.

Martin: I have a question for you. You said that that puts whole grain bread in the same category as soda. Wouldn’t the research then show that whole grain bread is so nutritious, wouldn’t that then show that ultra-processed foods could have beneficial impacts on health?

Miller Jones: I talk about this a lot at conferences, and we have all kinds of data to say that people who eat whole grain bread have a lower risk of everything. I guarantee you that 99% of that bread was not made at home. If it’s home made by the way, it gets a pass, no matter what you put in it, you could put a pound of salt in. So how can those two things be true at the same time?

Some people are actually starting to take apart Montero’s research. They’re taking it apart by showing if we take out yogurt — which also has been shown that no matter how much sugar is in there, it has positive health impacts — if we take out those things that we know have all kinds of data, what is left is Coke and candy. I think it’s really disingenuous to put these disparate things in the same category, but that’s where we’re at.

That’s why we did a headline a week on the evil of this ultra-processed food. And unfortunately, I would say people are not using critical thinking to see what is actually in those categories, and that bothers me.

Martin: It’s also unfortunate for bread manufacturers because if we start looking at ultra-processed foods by this definition of basically something having I think you said more than five ingredients, is just crazy. A manufacturer may want to add some seeds or oats or including multiple flours to increase the nutritional quality, and that would discourage them.

Miller Jones: It is so crazy that if you fortify the food, it immediately makes it an ultra-processed food. It’s nuts. I’m very disappointed at some of the large public health institutions that always say to avoid processed food without really thinking about what they’re saying. Because we can show that people who eat breakfast cereal every day have a lower weight than people who don’t. We have all kinds of data to say that this is not where we need to be. So we have another, as you say, myth to get around. Or if we wanted to add more herbs for instance to avoid sodium, then you’re going to be damned if you do, damned if you don’t.

Martin: Something I find interesting is also how the people who are often the first to complain about how processed our food is or how processed bread is are also the first to complain when they get some artisan bread that ends up molding the next day. Processing ensures safety.

Miller Jones: And sustainability. Think about how you can get a loaf of bread from some companies that last for 10 days without molding. Think of what that saves in terms of trucks to drive it and daily baking. As we look to 2050, both in terms of the food supply and in terms of the environment, we have to rethink this. Additives are not “bad-itives.” Additives extend the shelf life, and that is for people living in food deserts and for all of us in terms of living on this planet, that’s really important and it makes it cheaper.

I mean artisan bread is $8 a loaf and I can get one of the loaves with all the additives in it for about $2. I think it’s a classist system and a sexist system, and it’s a sexist system because who’s going to be home making all these things from scratch and are all going to make them correctly? For instance, they don’t know that if you eat a rotten tomato, you get more vitamin C but if you eat a canned tomato you get more lycopene. What we ought to be doing is balancing, just as we do everything else, eat some fresh and some canned or whatever because they all do something.

Spencer: I feel like just adding the word “ultra” in front of it just contributes to this alarmist culture in creating this fear of manufactured foods because what’s the difference between processed and ultra-processed? We hear people say so often avoid processed foods and that’s this rhetoric that gets ingrained into consumers’ minds, and then you throw in ultra-processed and it is like, “Hide your children.” So, what can bakers do? But first I want to ask from a formulating and food science standpoint, it seems like an impossible question, how do they create a healthy product that’s made on a commercial scale with five ingredients?

Miller Jones: If you put it in a plastic bag, in his definition, it is ultra-processed. He saw the food industry come into Brazil when they used to eat more ingredients that they just raised locally and cooked. He thinks the food industry at large came in and that’s the reason that Brazilians are gaining weight. So no, you cannot, you can make French bread with the four ingredients that stales every day, that is processed. But if I have a can of carrots with no salt in it, that is minimally processed under the Montero Scheme. If it has salt in it, or sugar in the can, it’s processed. If I put salt, sugar, herbs and an onion in it, now it’s ultra-processed. That’s how nuts it is.

I think what we want to do is really focus on all of the research that was done showing the benefits of breads, cereals and grains. Has been done with processed food, because that’s the way we eat it. There is no separate category for ultra-processed and unprocessed. With the Australians, we did the equivalent of the N Haynes database, and we went through and if you took out all the ultra-processed grains, people were just like the no grain group, they were going to be low in iodine, folate, iron and the B vitamins.

We knew that, but we went and showed using modeling, you would have to stop eating all bread and eat only oatmeal, quinoa and brown rice as your grain products. That’s such a Herculean dietary shift, it would never happen. We’ve really shown that using ultra-processed in this way is not helpful. We did it with the Aussie database, I hope we do it with the N Haynes database here.

Martin: It seems like there’s little that these manufacturers can do from a breadmaking standpoint. There are a lot of ingredients they shouldn’t want to remove or shouldn’t be removed in general. So, I think it all comes down to really educating consumers and their marketing to try to educate them on why this ingredient is here, why we include salt, and why this bread is fortified. Partnering with health professionals like dietitians for these marketing materials. I really think that’s the best route for them.

Miller Jones: If I were a bread manufacturer this is what I would do. What is sorbic acid? Sorbic acid is from the Rowanberry, which is eaten in several cultures. Benzoic acid comes from cranberries. Cranberries have so much benzoic acid that if the FDA had to allow you to label it, it wouldn’t be able to be sold. So, you can go through each of the things that increase the shelf life of bread and show that they are extracted from natural products. While the chemical name is what is on the label, they needn’t be frightened of the chemical name. If you lived in Poland, you would drink Rowanberry liqueur, you would eat Rowanberry tea and Rowanberry jam. These are things people eat, it’s not foreign.

Spencer: That’s getting into a myth we didn’t attack, the clean label situation and how subjective that is because there are chemical-sounding words that are still clean label and consumers need to be educated on them.

Miller Jones: When I was answering letters in the Minneapolis Star Tribune, someone wrote and asked, “Why are they putting hydrochloric acid in my food?” And I thought, “How did anyone get that idea?” Then I looked at it and they were putting thiamine hydrochloride and adding to breads and cereals.

Not knowing that thiamin hydrochloride was not hydrochloric acid, they had this little bit of knowledge. That’s one of the problems is that we talk in a science sphere and that’s scary to them. They have a bit of knowledge, and they know that hydrochloric acid is dangerous and you don’t want it in your food, and that is hard.

Spencer: Okay, just any last thoughts on when we look at sodium and this idea of ultra-processed. Any final thoughts on what bakers can do to communicate with consumers when it’s something that they can’t formulate around? How can they communicate to their end users that despite sodium, and even though it is made on a production line, this can still be a healthy food?

Martin: I think partnering with health professionals and dietitians, especially those with a presence and who understand research and often share research, can definitely help.

Miller Jones: Just like I said, additives aren’t bad-itives. If we could think of why we processed food, which Charlotte very eloquently talked about, and what would happen if we didn’t process food? We know that in African countries where they don’t process food, half of the food never makes it from the farm to the home. So just some way to explain that yes, this is processed and this is why.

If that could be written in a consumer-friendly way, or just really focusing on all the data that says that bread is good comes from using processed foods, so that doesn’t make sense, does it?

Martin: To add to that, sustainability and reducing food waste are so big right now. Consumers just don’t seem to understand that that means, processing foods. So, trying to educate on that. I don’t know that that burden falls on the shoulders of the bread industry, but integrating some of that messaging into their marketing could be helpful.

Miller Jones: It’s funny that the people who don’t want processed food, they’re the ones that are choosing things like milk made out of oats and almonds, which are very processed. I’m not necessarily against those things, but they have two parts of their brain that aren’t functioning in the same way.

Spencer: That’s what I was thinking about how consumers have this linear way of thinking in lanes. They don’t look at how it all intersects like processed foods are bad if we’re talking about bread, but processed foods aren’t bad if we’re talking about oat milk. There needs to be educational crossover to help consumers understand that because the bread was made at scale, it’s not bad for them.

Miller Jones: If we all made bread at home, how much of your day would it take? And then does it cost less or does it cost more? The reality of actually doing it, and then idealizing minimally processed food and not telling people that, “Okay, if you deep fry the chicken at home, it’s not any better for you than if you eat the deep fried chicken out.” They don’t make those kinds of statements. So it’s troubling.

Spencer: I just encourage you both to keep up the great work of getting the education and the information out there. Thank you for the work that you do with the Grain Foods Foundation to help with this messaging and help bakers and baked goods brands continue to provide good food. I appreciate all the work that you do. That really concludes this week’s conversation.

Next week, I’m very excited because we get to talk about one of my favorite topics and that is sandwiches. We are going to really dive into how bakers can break through the bread myths through sandwich innovation and the Grain Foods Foundation is doing a lot of work here. It is really interesting and sandwiches make me very happy, so I’m excited for next week’s conversation. I will see you both next week.

Welcome to Season 10, Episode 2, of the Troubleshooting Innovation podcast. Joanie Spencer, editor-in-chief for Commercial Baking, is spending this season with Julie Miller Jones, a member of the Grain Foods Foundation Scientific Advisory Board, and Charlotte Martin, registered dietitian and consultant for the Grain Foods Foundation. They’re debunking bread myths to help bakers develop delicious, healthy grain-based products — and help them educate consumers on the health benefits of bread. Sponsored by Lallemand.

In this episode, we tackle the myth around bread’s connection to the glycemic index.

Learn more about this season here, and listen to Troubleshooting Innovation on Apple, Spotify and Google.

Joanie Spencer: Hi, Julie. Hi, Charlotte. Thanks for joining me again this week.

Charlotte Martin: Thanks for having us again.

Spencer: This is an interesting one for me. There’s a sentiment that circulates among consumers that if they’re diabetic or they’re concerned about their blood sugar they should avoid bread. This feels a little bit misguided. Can you help me unpack this and understand what’s the truth here?

Martin: This idea that those with diabetes or those concerned about their blood sugar should completely avoid bread is definitely misguided. The key here is not to avoid bread, but to make informed choices about the type of bread, the quantity or portion size consumed, and, of course, what you consume it with. Bread, like any other carb-rich food, can impact blood sugar levels, but the effect depends greatly on the type of bread.

For instance, whole grain breads are richer in fiber which helps slow the absorption of carbs and therefore dampens the blood sugar response. Also pairing bread with healthy fats, proteins and/or more fiber can help slow the absorption of carbs even more leading to a more gradual rise in blood sugar. An example of that would be good old avocado toast, a slice of bread with fiber-rich avocado on top, a protein-rich egg and maybe some greens on top. The takeaway here is not to fear bread but to understand how to incorporate it wisely into a balanced diet, especially for those managing diabetes or who are concerned about their blood sugar levels.

Spencer: Julie, do you have anything to add about the truth behind this?

Julie Miller Jones: I think Charlotte said it very well. I am not a proponent of the glycemic index at all. I think the glycemic response of a person is very important, but the glycemic index has a lot of flaws in it. In fact, there was a study with hundreds of people and meals, it showed that the glycemic index was not a good predictor of what would happen when people ate things. For instance, one person had a banana, which has sugar in it, and as we would expect the blood sugar went way up; another person, it was completely flat. A cookie for that person that was completely flat went way up and a cookie for the person who ate the banana was completely flat.

It really is a very poor predictor for people who are normal or who have diabetes as to what is going on. The International Glycemic Index Registry from the University of Sydney shows that if you just type in white bread, you can get a glycemic index from extremely low — like, 30 — and you can get them at over 100, which is extremely high. Most of them are between 55 and 75, putting them in the moderate, or if they’re over 70 in the high level. I really think it does not make any sense to look at the glycemic index and that diabetics, especially those who have continuous glucose monitors, see what a particular food does to their glycemic index.

What we know is if we take bread, potatoes or other carbohydrate things, and we put some, as Charlotte mentioned, healthy fat on them, then the glycemic index goes much lower. We need to look at the whole meal again. All of the glycemic indices are done on students, usually in the 20s or 30s. They use 10 of them, and I would say they are not representative at all of the population. So, the index is very flawed and is useful in research but not useful as a meal-planning tool. People should really know more about what it does to their blood glucose.

Some diabetics need a slow-acting carbohydrate to act so that when they wake up in the morning, they don’t have low blood sugar. Therefore, eating a peanut butter sandwich at night, or an avocado toast at night might be ideal. People need to know what really makes them healthier.

Spencer: Charlotte, I’m interested in tapping into your experience as a dietitian. I think the conversations that you have with individual consumers would be very useful for bread producers. How are you advising people who have these kinds of concerns? I’m curious: Is this a hard assumption to change? What do you hear consumers saying about blood sugar concerns?

Martin: Blood sugar is a hot topic on social media these days. So, you have a lot of people without diabetes, who are wearing CGMs to monitor their blood sugar levels throughout the day. We touched on this last episode; a lot of people have become carbophobes for many reasons. It’s very hard right now to change the assumption that bread can’t fit into a weight management or blood sugar management diet.

I do mostly nutrition education on social media, so I’m talking to a lot of people at once. What I like to do is highlight the research that shows that grain intake is linked to cardiometabolic benefits, including weight loss, blood sugar management, and then also educate them on how to shop for more nutritious grain products like breads. This might involve education on reading a nutrition label — which a lot of people don’t know how to interpret — and understanding ingredient lists. I find that to be effective. I am just constantly reiterating that pretty much anything can fit into a diet if the majority of your diet is made up of nutrient-dense, mostly plant-based foods.

Spencer: Do you get to see metaphorical light bulbs go off when you’re educating people through social media on how to read a nutrition label? Are you getting good responses on that?

Martin: Yes, and one of the videos I did was on reading nutrition labels for bread. If you’re trying to find a 100% whole grain bread can be so confusing with all the different labels such as multi-grain and whatnot. Then when you’re looking at the ingredient list, and it says ‘wheat flour.’ I even for so long just assumed wheat flour meant whole wheat. So, things like looking for a certain fiber-to-carb ratio on the packaging. I think a lot of people are like, ‘Oh okay, this is easier than I thought. This makes sense.’

Spencer: So that leads me to my next question. Julie, you talked about the glycemic index, it’s impacted by so many different factors. When we’re looking at bread, it can be impacted by things such as processing, flour types or other ingredients that are included in a formula. What do bakers need to know about their products and the ways that they’re made? And how do they impact these types of consumers?

So, if you take your knowledge of how subjective the glycemic index is and you pair it with Charlotte’s knowledge of how people are reading labels and responding to what labels say, how do bakers need to see how it’s impacting people’s choices?

Miller Jones: While I gave you the example of people who were at the extremes and why the glycemic index didn’t work for everyone, there are some things can help lower glycemic index, and beadmakers can include those. One is resistant starch, which lowers blood sugar. Things like beta glucan, which comes from oats, not only lowers blood sugar, but it also lowers blood cholesterol. Beta glucan is a type of fiber, and other fibers may also help do that.

The use of large chunks or pieces, so seedier breads. I love them, and I know that people want their grain bread just as smooth as they can get it, but seedier breads and chunks or kernels of grains are processed in the body more slowly. Some studies show that if they want to change processing, the way you can make resistant starch and there are those kinds of biscuits that you can buy that are for breakfast that don’t raise your blood sugar. They do that by heating and cooling, heating and cooling, heating and cooling.

There are processing techniques that you can do with the flour or the starch that can slow down its absorbability. Those kinds of breads that have a denser texture, they did 10 minutes of kneading versus 15 and show that 15 minutes of kneading slowed down the release of the starch from the bread per se. Now I know every minute on the floor costs money, but if people could say that it was a lower glycemic index, it might be worth the gain.

Or you could talk to your supplier and see if they can provide that resistant starch piece or flour blend. I think both Charlotte and I have mentioned before these are ways you help reduce the glycemic response, and that may slow the rate at which glucose goes into the body. The airiest bread you have means that the enzyme can easily penetrate. That’s why you take French bread, which is flour, water, yeast and salt and pasta, which is flour, water and salt. Pasta, because the texture is very compact, has a very low glycemic index. It has the same ingredients with an airy texture has a high glycemic response.

So, can you alter the texture somewhat, so that it’s still very palatable, but it’s a little denser and harder for the enzyme to penetrate? Adding butter or a healthy oil also slows down. Sourdough. Bringing your pH of the crumb away from neutral by sourdough or adding acid will actually lower the glycemic response.

Spencer: Those are some great hidden gems, especially in ideas of how bakers can process their bread to really enhance the health benefits. I love that.

I participated in the webinar that you did with the Lallemand workforce, which I loved. One of my favorite things was just seeing employees at Lallemand getting excited about the things that they learned about bread, which was really cool. One thing that you both said is that whole-grain bread consumption was associated with a reduced risk of Type 2 diabetes. I found that to be very interesting. I was wondering if you could elaborate on that for me.

Martin: I believe that was my talking point from the webinar. I had mentioned a study that examined the relationship between bread consumption and the risk of Type 2 diabetes, and it was done on over 400,000 participants. It found that higher bread consumption — this was mostly with whole grain bread — was associated with a reduced risk of Type 2 diabetes.

Those with the highest intake of whole grain bread had a 20% lower risk of Type 2 diabetes. But it also found that the highest intake group for total bread — both whole and enriched white bread — had a 17% lower risk of Type 2 diabetes. I think that just goes to show that all bread can be included in a healthy diet, as long as you do make it a priority to include some whole-grain bread in there.

Miller Jones: One of the cohorts in that group is the Iowa Women’s Health Study, and those people who ate 2.7 servings, almost three, of whole grain bread had the lowest risk of Type 2 diabetes and a whole bunch of other things. But they actually had a total of about just six servings of bread, and that’s one of the reasons that the dietary guidelines say make half your grains full.

The other reason is they want people to eat fortified enriched grains because of the nutrients that they carry. They’re better absorbed from fortified enriched refined grains than some of the minerals, and even vitamins, are from the whole grain. So, you get better absorption, and you actually have the diabetes win. Other health risks are lower too, so I think that’s a really exciting piece of information. They also do way better than people who eat no grain, by the way.

Spencer: I think we need to get that message out more aggressively.

Miller Jones: Yeah, there’s a study where they looked at the people who ate no grain and just about every metric did worse.

Spencer: Correct me if I’m wrong, but that’s a conversation that I don’t hear being put out there as far as you hear people say, ‘Oh, I stopped eating carbs, and all of these great things happen to me.’ But we haven’t gotten that conversation out there about when people stop consuming grains, they have a higher risk of these health issues.

Miller Jones: The one that scares me to death is the one about folic acid. There’s a study that came out of NC State, where they looked at women who were on a no-grain or a low-carb diet for the year before them conceiving. What happened was, they had a 30% higher risk of neural tube defects. Since 1998, when the US mandated that flour contain folic acid, we dropped the risk of neural tube defect and spina bifida by over 50% in North America. To know how to stop it and have it come back makes me really sad.

Spencer: Where do you think this leaves bread bakers, in terms of missing out on opportunities? How can they reach consumers who might be erroneously avoiding their products? The phrase ‘erroneously avoiding bread’ is like, the whole no-carb movement.

But when you think about it, relative to the glycemic index, if people think, ‘I have blood sugar concerns, therefore, I can’t eat bread.’ How can bakers get through this myth from a production standpoint and a marketing or communications standpoint?

Martin: I think they just really need to rely heavily on their marketing teams. There’s this big movement now of wanting to know how your food is made, and where it comes from and getting more of like a behind-the-scenes look.

I think that could work well for bread manufacturers. It could be we created this new bread product that has less of a blood sugar response because we used X flour and X baking or kneading techniques in a little behind-the-scenes look. I think consumers would appreciate that. I think it’s really the marketing teams and creating that content and putting it on their social media channels and website. I think it could be very helpful.

Miller Jones:  The other thing I would suggest is having the marketing team talk to dieticians credentialing in diabetes, or to the American Diabetes Association. Where they say, that counting carbs is what matters and they try to both debunk the myth about no grain and a lot of people hold the myth about no fruit. Both of those are needed in the right amounts by diabetics. If they could get permission to put statements from the American Diabetes Association on what people with diabetes should do, or partner with them in some sort of way that might also be a strategy that would be helpful.

Martin: I agree. I think partnering with dieticians is a great move. I’ve seen a lot of brands and bread manufacturers partner with dieticians on social media. It’s not always to necessarily promote the health benefits of bread, but I think it can be very effective.

Spencer: I probably clicked on a video and now it’s like all over my feed, especially on Instagram. I’m seeing so many ‘I’m a dietitian and this is what I eat in a day.’ These little stitches of dietitian showing this is what I’m fixing myself for breakfast and lunch. I think there’s a good opportunity from a partnership standpoint with brands to connect with dieticians and say, ‘This is how I use X bread brand to make avocado toast and these are the health benefits behind avocado toast.’

Miller Jones:  Just this week, one of the dietitians that I know posted the six ultra-processed foods you should all be eating. The number one was whole grain bread. Number two was whole grain cereals with low sugar. Number three was low-sugar yogurt. That’s the kind of thing that would be incredibly helpful.

Spencer: Absolutely. I think having some kind of partnership with a dietician or other health expert just really lends that credibility and breaks down that inherent mistrust that people have with food manufacturers. I think we have come a long way with that, especially in the past five years, and with the increased visibility of the supply chain, since the pandemic and people seeing the impact of the pandemic on the supply chain and what supply chain means. I think people have a better understanding of how foods are made and where the food comes from.

I think it’s breaking down a little bit of that barrier. I do think partnering with someone like you, Charlotte, to be able to say, ‘Here’s how bread and other grain-based foods can be part of your healthy diet, even if you are diabetic.’

Martin: I do partner with brands and not just bread or other grain products, but that is what I do. That is actually what I’m doing with Grain Foods Foundation now. Every month I create some piece of content around either dispelling a bread myth or highlighting a benefit. I should add to my list something on blood sugar management and bread for those with diabetes because I think that would be a great topic.

It gets a lot of good feedback and engagement, so I think more of that would be very helpful.

Spencer: I agree. Well, that was my last question for this episode. Thank you so much, I learned so much. I feel like I’m going to end this conversation smarter than I started it. Thank you so much to both of you for enlightening me on these myths around the glycemic index and bread and carbs’ impact on blood sugar. This was really interesting.

Next week, we are going to talk about some assumptions around sodium levels, and then also dive into what consumers think of when they hear the term ultra-processed, which is something that’s come into the American lexicon a lot lately. I’m excited to dive into that with you both. We’re going to unpack those two, clear the air and maybe have some more great advice for bakers. Thank you again for this conversation, and I look forward to speaking with you next week.

Welcome to Season 10 of the Troubleshooting Innovation podcast. Joanie Spencer, editor-in-chief for Commercial Baking, is spending this season with Julie Miller Jones, a member of the Grain Foods Foundation Scientific Advisory Board, and Charlotte Martin, registered dietitian and consultant for the Grain Foods Foundation. They’re debunking bread myths to help bakers develop delicious, healthy grain-based products — and help them educate consumers on the health benefits of bread. Sponsored by Lallemand Baking.

In the first episode, we get to know our experts and dive into the first myth: carbs vs. calories.

Learn more about this season here, and listen to Troubleshooting Innovation on Apple, Spotify and Google.

Joanie Spencer: Julie and Charlotte, thank you so much for joining me on this podcast.

Julie Miller Jones: You’re so welcome.

Charlotte Martin: Thank you for having us.

Spencer: I am excited to spend these next five weeks with you. I’ve been in the industry for about 15 years, so I’ve had my share of hearing myths and seeing their impact on commercial bakery producers. And I’m just excited to dive into them, dig into what’s true and what can help bakers produce great products that are also good for our bodies.

Let’s just first get to know you better. Julie, I’m going to start with you. You have such a long history with the Grain Foods Foundation and in the baking industry. Can you give me a brief recap on what that background looks like?

Miller Jones: I have a PhD in nutrition and food science. I taught dietitians, and I’m an economist, so I have a little bit of a consumer background. I call myself a mile wide and an inch deep because I taught so many different things. I was at a small university, so I would teach everything from beginning food science to nutritional biochemistry in the chemistry department to intercultural food patterns or experimental foods. Unlike a lot of PhDs, who know the infinite amount of folic acid down to how the reaction occurs, my real talent is the ability to take scientific information and make MDs understand it and make consumers understand it — and all the way in between.

I got into grains because Mississippi is where flour milling in the United States began and thrived. Because I’m from the ‘Mill City,’ early on in my career — back in the 1970s — I joined the American Association of Cereal Chemists, because all of the people from the big companies such as General Mills, Pillsbury and Multifoods, were there.

I did a lot of speeches for them, went to meetings and eventually became the president of the American Association of Cerial Chemists International. I wrote a regular column on what’s new in anything about grains from across the spectrum. I joined GFF the year it began and have been with them since the early 2000s.

Spencer: Charlotte, you bring a very different perspective. That’s one thing I’m excited about in this conversation is that we have two intelligent but very different perspectives on bread, and both who contribute greatly to the Grain Foods Foundation and its efforts.

You’re a registered dietitian and you have a strong digital presence. Can you share your background, how you developed this passion for helping people achieve healthy relationships with food and then how you got involved with DFF?

Martin: My passion for nutrition started with a fascination for the Paleo diet in college — which is funny considering I’m such a huge proponent of carbs and grains now — I did my honors project on the Paleo diet. So, I put professors on the Paleo diet.

Clearly, my nutrition philosophy has changed a lot. At that time, there was a social media presence, but it wasn’t as big as it is today. I realized I was falling into these nutrition myths of ‘carbs are bad.’ And then I realized that a lot of people just don’t know how and what to eat to support their optimal health. So that was when I decided that nutrition was what I wanted to do.

My first job as a dietitian just threw me out there into many different roles. I was working on the product development side, but then I was also working on the consumer side. That’s how I started getting into nutrition education on social media and television. Then I just ran with it. It’s been great because as much as I hate that there are so many myths out there on social media and just so much nutrition misinformation, it keeps me in business. I am constantly debunking nutrition myths and just trying to educate my followers who have been severely misinformed.

And then I got involved with GFF a few years ago; they had reached out about helping provide some quotes for digital magazines. I was doing that with them for a little while, now I’m doing some social media content and other things with them. It’s been a great mutually beneficial partnership.

Spencer: Awesome. Yes, I appreciate what you have brought to the thought leadership behind GFF. So, thank you both so much for joining me and providing these very specific and important perspectives on this.

I’m going to ask a pre question before we dive into this. You both are well versed in nutrition on the consumer side. I’m curious, based on your experience, what would you say are the most important things that commercial bakers need to know about people’s relationship with grain-based foods? What are the obstacles that these producers are working against?

Miller Jones: Throughout my career, it’s gotten worse, and there are more obstacles. If only we could go back to understanding that bread and grains are the staff of life, it’s what we need to do for sustainability and nutrition. Instead, we have good stuff on the web, but I think the fact that we have the web, we also have a lot of, ‘I eat, therefore I know, and I write a blog.’ And the more outrageous it sounds, the better it sells. And the more frightened people are.  

I think we have all these myths about low carb. All of those have been going on since I’ve been teaching, but they always come up with a new gimmick or name. That has always been going on in my career — this bashing of the bread and grain industry — just because they’re carbohydrate-containing. Then we have the anti-gluten thing that various famous people glob onto, and that gets people following these cockamamie diets.

Spencer: Charlotte, what about you?

Miller Jones: To add to what Julie said, I find that thanks to social media, a lot of people these days have become ‘carbophobes.’ They don’t necessarily stop eating carbs, but they’re afraid of them. And oftentimes, they feel guilty after eating carb-rich foods like bread. It’s been very hard to reframe that mindset, especially like Julie mentioned, since the past several decades have just been one low-carb diet after the other and now, we’re facing the carnivore diet and keto, which are just basically no carbs.

So, it has been challenging and consumers have become terrified of bread. A lot of what I see on social media are proponents for low-carb lifestyles and diets that misinterpret the research on grains, so that doesn’t help either. It has been challenging, but I think we have a lot of health professionals and food scientists on social media who have developed a large presence that are combating that misinformation.

Spencer: Okay, so based on that I’m ready to dig in and uncover what bakers can do to overcome these misconceptions. In this first episode, what I want to unpack is the perceptions that inevitably come with carbs and calories.

There’s this myth that bread and carbs lead to weight gain, but the truth is serving sizes are playing more of a role than the actual bread intake. What exactly does that mean?

Martin: I can start on this one. This myth that bread and carbs directly lead to weight gain is an oversimplification. In reality, weight gain is the result of consuming more calories than your body uses. That’s regardless of the source of these calories.

High-carb foods like any other food group only contribute to weight gain when they’re consumed in quantities that exceed our body’s caloric needs. It’s not the bread or carbs themselves that are inherently fattening, but rather that total caloric intake and the serving size that matter. So, when consumed in moderation, and as part of a balanced diet, bread will not automatically lead to weight gain. It’s just important to focus on portion control and overall caloric balance instead of eliminating specific foods or food groups like carbs and bread.

Miller Jones: I wish we could reframe the myth to a truth. The truth is that too many calories cause weight gain. For 50 years of my career, we beat the dead horse about fat. Fat was making us fat because it has 9 calories per gram and carbs don’t. Too many calories or too much protein can make you fat.

We need to reframe that it’s calories, not just carbs. It’s calories. The idea that calories don’t count is preposterous. A lot of the diet books tell you that you do need to count calories or you don’t need to exercise. Well, that’s silly and just stupid. If we could just reframe that myth — that it’s the calories — then we could actually change what’s going on.

Spencer: It makes me think back to when the Atkins diet came on the scene. It promoted that if you cut out carbs you could eat all the bacon and cheese that you want. But that’s not true; if you eat too much bacon and cheese, you’re not going to lose weight just because you’re not eating bread.

Then from a product development standpoint, how do you think bakers can be a part of the solution when you’re thinking about calorie intake rather than carb intake?

Miller Jones: The trouble is that people want to believe some sort of three-word sentence, ‘Don’t eat X’ or ‘Do eat X.’ That’s what they want. But if you continue wanting that, you’ll never reach the goal. The goal is that the dietary guidelines, USDA MyPlate or the Mediterranean diet, have acres of research that show when you balance the food groups, including breads, cereals and fruits, you are healthier. You are more likely to be of normal weight.

The DASH diet has been going on since 1997, and when people ate that, not only did they cut their blood pressure medicine in half and many came off of it, but they also lost weight, and reduced the risk of cancer.

 If only we could say there is no magic talisman in ‘Don’t eat X.’ What you need to concentrate on is using the four food groups in the right way. Balance means that you have to pick things from different groups. Until we do that, we will still be chasing our tails and gaining weight.

Spencer: I talked to a person who was at a high level of leadership in a baking company, and they decided to start selling half loaves. The company was very concerned that they were going to lose money if they were selling smaller loaves, but they flew off the shelves. Their profits didn’t change in selling half loaves. I feel like that’s a great part of the solution when we’re talking about calorie intake. If bakers can look at their packaging sizes, especially when consumers are also keeping waste top of mind. Those two can work in tandem.

Martin: That’s a great point, Joanie. I’ve been noticing that in the grocery stores near me, a couple of different brands have been offering those half loaves, which I think is a great idea. Another thing is I don’t know if you’ve seen those ultra-thin slices. They’re smaller, but I do feel like portions in general of many products have increased over the years. It’s nice to have that option, because every time you make a sandwich or have a piece of toast, you don’t have to eat this huge piece. It provides an option to still get that bread fix in but be able to choose a smaller slice, especially if they’re not that hungry. Usually when it’s in front of you, if your only option is a thick, huge slice of bread, you’re going to eat the whole thing. So, offering consumers different sizes, is a great idea.

Miller Jones: We also have many one- or two-person families now. That’s also really helpful because optimal bread is not put in the fridge; it’s left on the counter. The way I deal with that is I cut the loaf in half and then take it out as we need it, so it stays fresh. I think it’s a winner from not having too much around, but it’s also a winner for the budget and the environment. I think that’s a really great solution.

I think other solutions that some bakers have tried are thinner buns and mini bagels. I think most people don’t know that bagels are almost three and a half slices of bread. If you ask some people ‘How much bread did you have?’ they will say, ‘Well, I just had one bagel.’ But they don’t realize that bagels are half-proofed, so when they’re boiled in the water, which has a little bit of lye in it to give it a shiny surface, that is a lot more dough than you’d get if you were eating bread. We have a little bit of education to do there, but just ways to actually encourage smaller sizes, I think, is a really good idea.

Spencer: I agree. For years, there’s also been this rhetoric around white bread, and that it just contains empty calories with no nutritional value. Is that true?

Miller Jones: Well, half the world gets 50% of their calories from grains, and if you’re in a developing country, it’s more than that. If we’re promoting a sustainable and a plant-based diet, that’s where grains need to stay. When we start moving to eating more protein, which is what a lot of people are trying to do right now, that’s the most economically and environmentally expensive way we can eat. We need to dial back and look at how can we use the bread and why is bread there. Bread is there because it provides so many nutrients.

A study with NHANES showed that if we eliminated fortified bread products, we would reduce the number of people who are meeting the niacin requirements. Right now. 50% eat what we call the ‘estimated average requirement,’ which is what we consider the minimum you need. Without fortification over 50% don’t meet the estimated average requirement. With fortification, only 10% don’t meet it. That’s one nutrient; with folate 90% don’t need it, and with folate added to bread under 10% don’t need it. We can do that for iron, folate, niacin. People discount the importance of fortified white bread and grain products to their peril.

Spencer: Where do you think the opportunities are? How can bakers look at their formulas and reformulate to increase nutrients like fiber, in their products? Some people say whole wheat bread is the answer, but do white bread and whole wheat bread need to look at their formulas and increase those nutrients?

Martin: I think one option is experimenting with partial substitution of refined flour with whole grain flour and white bread. I know some bread manufacturers are already doing that, but it can improve the nutritional value in terms of things like fiber without significantly altering the traditional taste and texture of white bread. I think the issue there lies in that sometimes they use misleading wording on the packaging. So, they’ll call the bread multi-grain or say, ‘Made with whole grains,’ which consumers often interpret as the bread being completely 100% whole grain. I find that happens quite frequently.

I think experimenting with different flours … Dave’s Killer Bread has a white bread that uses both refined and whole wheat flours. They have enriched wheat flour and whole wheat flour in addition to, I think it was, barley, spelt, rye and quinoa flours. It adds a tiny little bit of fiber and probably some other micronutrients, but it still looks like white bread and tastes like white bread. I think that’s a good option there.

Miller Jones: The myth is that white bread doesn’t get any fiber, and that couldn’t be further from the truth. In that, 50% of the fiber intake that we get comes from white bread because we eat it so frequently. This idea that white bread is devoid of both nutrients and fiber, is just wrong.

In terms of what bakers can do, I know there’s research at Kansas State and other universities where they’re looking at taking varietals that naturally have higher fiber content and using those. I know that some companies are using resistant starch, which is a source of fiber. It functions like starch in grain; however, if you use too much you get a gritty feeling. But using resistant starch, which can be called modified corn starch, it won’t have a label name that is off-putting to most.

In addition to all the wonderful ways that Charlotte suggested by blending and making those sound alluring, using white whole wheat, which looks more like regular whole wheat in terms of color. It looks like white bread, rather than darkly colored with the ones that are much higher polyphenolics. Those are just some tactics that you can use.

I think it is important to mention that under 5% of people meet the fiber requirement. It is so important for all kinds of health, if we could just make people think calories do count and they aren’t getting enough fiber, I would die happy.

Spencer: I keep thinking about how I have spent the last 13 years trying to get my son to eat what’s good for him and get him to eat his veggies. I feel like that’s what we’re trying to accomplish with Americans — eat what’s good for you. There are tons of little strategies and tricks that, Charlotte, I’m sure you are well versed in, such as tricking our kids into eating their vegetables. What is the key to getting consumers to eat what’s good for them when it comes to bread?

Martin: I think that’s a great question. When it comes to children specifically, I would think that packaging plays a big role here, interactive packaging that features fun characters. Even if it is a whole grain bread, incorporating fun characters, bright colors or interactive elements can make it more attractive to children. I think it’s about making healthy eating a fun and enjoyable experience.

Another thing bakers could do is engage in educational and promotional activities aimed at children. This could involve hosting baking workshops for kids where they learn the benefits of healthy eating and get hands-on experience in the breadmaking process. That’s also another time when they can educate children and parents on the benefits of bread and what goes between bread.

Spencer: I love that. I must put a mental pin in that comment because in a couple of episodes, we’re going to talk about misconceptions around processing. So, I need to remember that in thinking about some transparency around processing is not a bad word.

Miller Jones: I think you could also have games, such as ‘Have You Had Your Fiber Today?’ Classrooms could make it a competition and say, ‘Who got the most fiber today, and what did you get it from?’ This way you know it comes only from plant foods and that grains, fruits and vegetables are important sources by putting together a sandwich that has fruits, vegetables and grains. You could support school programs; that could be a fun idea that would get you publicity and might help improve children’s nutrition.

Spencer: I love it. I have one last question that may be an ethereal question. We’re going to close it out with this discussion. Is it realistic to envision a future where bread correlates with healthy weight? Can we get there, and what will it take to get there?

Martin: I certainly think so, maybe not in the near future. I think what is most important is education. We just need to change this narrative around bread by dispelling the myths and highlighting how certain types of bread can be a healthy part of our diet. I think this involves some transparent labeling and proactive communication about the benefits of these healthier options. A lot of that could easily be done via social media campaigns since so much marketing is done on social media. Then also a cultural shift and how we perceive and consume bread is essential.

Encouraging moderation and understanding that role of bread in a balanced diet. It is really just about educating around making informed choices. It’s not just about the type of bread we eat, but also about the portion sizes and how we incorporate it into our overall diet. What else are we serving the bread with? Because again, it is more about what is between those slices than the bread itself when it comes to weight management.

Miller Jones: I’d like to modify your dream. I think you did a great job, but I would like it to be a future where diet correlates with health, rather than just bread. If we get the bread right, and the other things wrong, it won’t be a healthy weight or a healthy diet. I am a whole diet person. I believe you can have cake on your birthday; I think you should have cake on your birthday. But I don’t think you should eat cake every day.

So, how can we put together the idea that choosing the right things regularly, in the right mix, brings about healthy diets, overall health and healthy weight? Until we do that, we will be chasing myth after myth after myth. I’ve watched people do it with different kinds of myths, and they only got fatter. Until we say, ‘I’m going to take the USDA MyPlate, the Mediterranean diet or the DASH diet,’ which includes all the elements of the diet in the right amounts.

Spencer: Do you think Americans can get to that balance?

Miller Jones: Can versus will. Two-thirds of the population are overweight. When you ask people if they have a good diet, two-thirds of the people say, ‘Yes.’ So, somebody’s lying. Until we look at ourselves and say, ‘We are the problem. I am not doing this right. It’s not because XYZ company made me eat this food. I chose to eat it. It was an enjoyable choice, but I shouldn’t do it all the time.’ I think we can get there; I’m not sure we have the will.

Charlotte has much more optimism to go forward with it.

Martin: I know, but I also have the pessimism of being on social media all the time and just seeing how confusing nutrition messaging in general is. I have to agree with you; I think we could potentially, but I think it will take a lot. Nutrition messaging in general in the media is just all over the place, and consumers are confused.

They’re so focused on avoiding seed oils that they completely just miss the concept of consuming a balanced diet rich in whole grains, legumes and produce. I don’t know if we can get there anytime soon. I think it is promising that we do have a lot of nutrition experts who are growing a voice and providing sound nutrition information.

Miller Jones: In my career span, I have seen, ‘If everybody would only eat less fat, we would be healthier.’ So that brought on the cookies that said had no fat, and customers ended up eating the whole package. And now we’re going to do it with carbs. I think it’s going to go on for a while longer.

Now, protein is the salvation. But then I think we will see protein has some risks too. But maybe we will get smarter. If we could get somebody famous, but not terribly controversial, to lead the charge, maybe that would be helpful. But we may just need a Pied Piper to bring us out of what our demons are.

Spencer: I do think that the good news is people want to learn about their food, but the bad news is that people want to learn about their food as well. That’s where they’re consuming good information and misinformation. I do think that people like you, Charlotte, who are out there in the social media and in the digital space, communicating good information helps. If we can teach bakers not only how to develop good and healthy products but also communicate that their products are healthy and enjoyable to consume, I think we can get there. But I agree, it’s probably not going to be tomorrow. I think at some point we can get there, we just need to fight the good fight and continue putting out good information.

Miller Jones: I know before social media, there was an article that looked at media in general. It found that one out of five pieces of information was nutritionally accurate. I assume that with the web, which is impossible to monitor, it’s probably one out of every 1,000 now. People will go to where their fears are. They also want to have lost weight yesterday. When someone says, ‘Well, if you just do X, you’ll be thinner.’ People so want to believe that.

But if we can get just a list of communicators, that the baking industry says these people in general, give reliable information that might be helpful. Or somewhere the average baker can go and then have something in their marketing that says today’s tip, so they’re not constantly being bombarded by incorrect information.

Spencer: Yes, that is a good point. Ladies, thank you so much for such a compelling first episode. It was great just getting to know you. We really just skimmed the surface on this discussion around myths. I’m really looking forward to the next four weeks. We’re going to dive into myths around the glycemic index, sodium, intake processing and then we’re going to look at Americans’ relationship with sandwiches, because that’s even getting some myths thrown its way. Then we’re going to close out this season by talking about women’s health. That’s really important and I’m excited to dive into how bread and grain-based foods can support women’s health as well. I’m so looking forward to these next few weeks with you and tapping your brains. Next week we are going to talk about bread’s connection to the glycemic index.

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