Welcome to Season 13 of the Troubleshooting Innovation podcast. Joanie Spencer, editor-in-chief for Commercial Baking, is spending this season with Markey Culver, CEO of The Women’s Bakery, a social enterprise bakery in East Africa. They’re discovering the challenges and rewards that come with creating change through baking. Sponsored by Middleby Bakery Group.

In our fourth episode, Markey talks about how The Women’s Bakery has gone from empowering women to feeding kids with its One Bread Project.

Learn more about this season here, and tune into Troubleshooting Innovation on Apple or Spotify.

Joanie Spencer: Hi Markey, welcome back.

Markey Culver: Hi Joanie, nice to be here.

Spencer: So, this month has been so enlightening, and I’ve learned so much about your story that I didn’t already know. Just when I thought I knew everything, I’m learning more. And this next phase is the One Bread Program. We’ve kind of gone chronologically through The Women’s Bakery’s story and how it all started with that one loaf of bread that you made to go with your salad. Then last week, we ended with a very interesting stat: When you started the One Bread Program by providing bread to children through schools, you started with feeding 400, and you have now gone to feeding 24,000 children.

Culver: A day.

Spencer: A day! I believe you have achieved commercial bakery status.

Culver: Woo hoo!

Spencer: And you are changing the world, baby. So let’s talk about this. You said that Pauline, your COO, was a big driver because she recognized that you could feed children by providing bread to school. That’s what she recognized. Is that, right? Am I remembering that correctly?

Culver: Yeah, it’s under her leadership that the One Bread Project has grown as much as it has.

Spencer: Okay, let’s talk about how it started. How, how did Pauline sort of broach this?

Culver: Actually, Pauline came into this, Pauline began her tenure with The Women’s Bakery in 2021.

The One Bread Project, again, fits and starts. That’s been kind of the theme for the early days of The Women’s Bakery. But the One Bread Project formally started, I think, in 2019 with just one school. And I will be honest with you, I recently learned that it was an initiative of our bakers at one of our bakeries. Because when I was first starting the several iterations of The Women’s Bakery — or what became The Women’s Bakery — I always had an eye toward feeding kids but had never formalized it. We did start it at another, a different bakery where we were serving school, again, free bread in the really early days, and it was like 200 kids, but it stopped. It petered out. It didn’t really take off. So in 2019 something happened where it really did take off. So what I understand — and I was told this — I think that that’s actually a really important piece here, is that this is not all top down; like, I don’t drive everything, right?

I was informed how the One Bread Project started. And I thought, ‘Oh, well, I didn’t know that! I guess I should know that!’ So, what I was told was that it was our, one of our more rural bakeries, which is the Gicumbi bakery; it’s in the northern part of Rwanda. The women bakers there said — or, you know, came to the then leadership — and said, ‘Hey, our kids are going to school. We know they’re hungry, so can we start serving that school?’ That’s at least what I understand. And so the One Bread Project was formalized, I think, that way. And I believe it started where the bread was simply free.

And so I think that that’s why I really attribute the growth — the tremendous, and dare I say, exponential growth — of the One Bread Project to Pauline’s leadership. Because it was under her leadership that it really took off, and that she actually was able to do it in a way where we balanced free bread with paid bread, with schools or parents that were paying for bread. And that was her initiative, and she succeeded in that initiative.

When she came in to The Women’s Bakery in 2021, I can’t remember exactly how many children we were feeding. I think the weight was something like 90-10: where 90% of the kids we were serving, it was free bread, and 10% the schools, or parents or whomever were paying. And Pauline’s objective was to balance it out, to say, like, can we do like 70-30? What makes sense? Because when she came on, she was tasked with getting the bakeries profitable. So, she was hired as the director of operations, and her objective was, ‘Okay, how do we bring these three bakeries in Rwanda to true profitability so we can sustain these operations and then go build another bakery and replicate the model?’ So, her pushback then was, ‘Okay, I can do that, but then we have to stop feeding these kids for free.’ And so then that became a bit of a dilemma because neither of us, she saw the value of that, and she experienced the value. As a child, she grew up with a similar program. Actually, in Kenya, she is Kenyan, where she was the recipient of milk or bread or something in school and found it valuable, and so wanted to have something like that be available for kids now. So, she is the one who came up with the paying scale idea. She is the one who really pushed for schools to stair-step into paying, and I’m happy to report that now, even with the growth — so, going from 400 kids served a day in 2019 to over 24,000 kids being served a day today — Pauline has gotten us pretty close to like 60-40. Like 60% of the bread is free, but 40% are paying. So, we’re actually generating real revenue from schools. And now, the market that we see, or that she sees in Rwanda, for where we can actually start generating real revenue, and like building up that revenue, getting us closer to that profitability horizon is in schools — is in paying schools.

And then it was also Pauline’s idea to approach private schools. So, if we get private schools and they pay full pay, it allows us to subsidize, to better subsidize, schools that can’t. And so then just that’s when our numbers skyrocketed.

Spencer: So, do the schools pay for the bread, and then they offer it to the children for free? Or do the families buy it from the school?

Culver: That may be the makeup at some of the schools, but I think what it is, is that maybe parents contribute a little bit initially, like up front, and then school is able to say, ‘Okay, for the entire school year, 180 days, your child will get a fortified piece of bread every day.’

Spencer: I think I’ve heard you talk about this before. I may be wrong. But when a child is able to eat at school, the child is then more successful in school. And I believe that there are studies like, readily available in general about that, like, that’s a pretty well-known fact. But have you seen this cause-and-effect in the schools who are participating in the One Bread program?

Culver: Yes, we have. So, we’ve been tracking since — I think actually, maybe it was, maybe it was 2020 — we got our first grant in 2020, I think, for the One Bread Project. And then, yes, we conduct a survey.

So, this was something that actually was difficult for us to figure out how to do. because how do you track a child’s nutrition — and the improvement in nutrition? I learned that that was really, you could only track that through blood. Well, we’re a bakery. We’re not going to start drawing blood from kids like, I’m not going to do that. So we had to do like, a more qualitative evaluation. So we created a survey with multiple questions that we conducted at participating schools. Most of those schools were schools that received either free or heavily subsidized breads from the Women’s Bakery. And the questions, when I say qualitative, some were quantitative because it was like, ‘What we saw, and this was something we weren’t anticipating.’ The quantitative part was how much the attendance of a school changed and how dramatically. So, for example —and we have testimonies from principals saying this — where parents would learn that this school in this community is serving Women’s Bakery bread every day, and they would move their kids out of the school that they’re currently going to to put them into a school where there was Women’s Bakery bread. So, suddenly, a school that maybe had like their attendance was 500 kids ballooned into 1,000. And that’s also what made it difficult for us to keep up with it from a cost standpoint because we’d sign a contract with school, not anticipating that the attendance would increase so much, and it doubled, right? And so suddenly you have to double what you’re providing. So, yes.

Spencer: That answered, like the quantitative, and then…

Culver: Oh yeah. So that one was a little harder for us to track, to be honest. We do have really good data from the last year, like this last year, but that one was a little bit more difficult to track. And I don’t know exactly why. I don’t know if it’s like a human error on our standpoint or what, but I think that some of it had to do with attendance. If kids are coming mid year, are they performing better than they did at the start of the year? That’s just N/A, like not applicable. So, we didn’t really have that data. But for the most part, what we’ve seen is yes, that like, attendance not only increases, but then kids don’t drop out of school. Dropouts are usually pretty high, and so bread is keeping them in school. And then yes, the teachers report that students are performing better in school.

So we’re trying to now make our survey a little bit more sophisticated to get actual numbers. Like, how much better are they doing in school? Like, how how many tests have they passed? Are they able to sit for a national exam and pass it? I think that because this program has grown so quickly, we’re still learning what data points are important to keep track of. But yes, in short, kids are going to, staying in, and performing better at school.

Spencer: So then, from your perspective, just in in your lay opinion — you’re not an economist, you’re not a politician — but can you connect the dots, like, what happens to a population that has more educated people, and the people who are educated become better educated? What happens to a community when education is increased?

Culver: Autonomy and development! Yes, exactly that is yes. Honestly, if you were to distill everything that The Women’s Bakery is doing. I think that that is the ultimate goal. It’s like agency, it’s self actualization. And so we do that for women. And I think the byproduct here through bread is, is the children and the futures of families that can also happen. So yes, we absolutely see that. And I will say — and this gives me both hope and pride in The Women’s Bakery — is that I think that the One Bread Project and our proof of concept with this is starting to pay off. Because not only are more schools approaching us, not only are more schools paying for bread in Rwanda, but now we’re attracting people outside of Rwanda for the replication of this model, which would be amazing.

Spencer: And I mean, it just seems like it would feed economic development.

Culver: Oh, yeah, definitely. So Melinda French Gates, if you’re listening, or MacKenzie Scott: Yes, Joanie is correct. And yes, I accept. And I do see that as being a huge pathway to success because you’re talking about jobs like gainful employment for women. For me — and this is the ultimate vision of The Women’s Bakery — it’s redefining and reimagining business as it could be.

And so, this is business by and for women, and it’s working consciously for people, not exploitively against them. And so in this case, it would be kids, but then the future of those kids. So yeah, I see that as being amazing. And then I think that’s going forward, that’s looking at the future. And then if you go all the way back, or if you’re looking at this along the value chain, then how can you do that, also with all the raw materials, right? So, like, if you’re going to balloon and have this amazing school — and it’s not a feeding program, it’s a snack program — Pauline is dreaming right now and will be working with professional, technical bakers soon to actually make it more of a meal. How to put more hearty substance, whether it’s like a filling in bread or something to actually make it a meal. But right now, it’s just snack. I think that’s important to say. But like, all the way along the value chain, if you start with farming, like growing the wheat, milling the wheat, distributing the wheat, or fortifying the wheats, it just opens up a world of possibility, and I think an ecosystem of opportunity for the region.

Spencer: Are there specific parameters that define, like, are there defining factors for a meal program vs. a snack program?

Culver: Probably. Sorry, I don’t know. I think that for me, that’s me. I’m the one saying that because, like, I really want to feed kids and heartily. And so I think what we’re doing right now is we’re filling a gap, but it’s not all the way. Like, so, I think a piece of bread can be, really, can be an excellent source of food, yes, but it’s not a meal. And so then our next phase with the One Bread Project is, ‘Okay, great. How do we make it a meal?’ And the meal being like, ‘Okay, you need protein, you need vegetables and you need a grain.’ The complete meal.

Spencer: I mean, I think that this is, like a small but incredibly significant step, because seems like I call back on what you said every episode. I call back on what you said in the first episode that culturally in Rwanda, people ate one meal a day.

Culver: In the rural parts, yes.

Spencer: Right. In rural East Africa. And then here comes this suburban, Midwestern American woman who was like, ‘But I need a snack. Like, but I have lunch.’ And it started this effect of now snacks — like, one snack — supplementing in a day is for many schools becoming the norm. So, what an incredible impact on a culture.

Culver: Yeah. It could be really great. Yeah. I’m pretty excited about this. I think that the potential, especially if we can do it in a way that truly is sustainable — whether it’s working with governments or like local or national, or partnering with larger foundations — I think that this has the potential to really be shifting. Like it could shift a lot of stuff in a positive direction because it would encourage families to send their kids to school, kids to stay in school, kids to do better in school.

If we got — we as The Women’s Bakery — if we were to get bigger contracts like that, it would allow us to employ more women, like train and employ more women. There’s just, there’s a ripple effect that could be pretty large here.

Spencer: Yeah, absolutely. And it’s funny because it’s, it’s circular, and then it also ripples out. The more that circle is sustained, the bigger the ripple it creates.

Culver: Exactly.

Spencer: That’s amazing. Okay, so how does working with governments come into play? Do you, is this something new, or have you just been working directly with schools, and now you’re having conversations from a more legislative perspective?

Culver: Yes. In short, yes. I think that in Rwanda, we did. We tried to approach the — it’s called the Ministry of Education — last year about adopting this nationally. And while I do think that there’s potential for that, I think that we’re not quite there yet. According to the Ministry of Health, we need a large NGO, like a non-governmental organization’s backing, and their choice would be the World Food Program.

So, we went to the World Food Program, and they’re right now their focus area wouldn’t be exactly what we’re doing. They’re focusing in other areas globally, where they see the need being a little bit greater. But I do think that at least we know the pathway, and I think that the door could be open.

So yes, right now we’re working directly with schools in Rwanda, but we have been approached by local governments from other countries in the region, in East Africa. So I do think that if we have the proof of concept in Rwanda, and so then if we’re able to replicate, like pilot that, and replicate successfully that proof of concept in another country, then that could just be the momentum we need to open up a lot more doors. I think it’s difficult to work in a country anywhere if you don’t have government backing, but specifically in East Africa. So it is something we would certainly need.

Spencer: Right. That makes sense to me. So, okay, so from a business standpoint, proof of concept has been achieved, and you have the potential to replicate it. But how does One Bread fit into the business? So I guess what percentage of the business is One Bread, and who are your other customers?

Culver: What percent of our revenue is One Bread, I think is your question. I think it’s a really good one, because up until two days ago — I wish Pauline were on this call with me — because up until two days ago, I would say, ‘Well, it’s probably not, it’s probably not a driving factor in our revenue generation.’ But it is, actually, and it could be pretty massive. So I think that in Rwanda, right now, what Pauline is projecting for 2025, the revenue breakdown for One Bread paying schools would probably be close to 40% of our — maybe 50, even — like, overall revenue, which is significant. And I think she’s driving it to be even more because, again, she’s seeing that the market could be in private schools.

So, perhaps some listeners are confused right now because obviously we work in more rural areas, and so don’t we want to work with kids who are poor or maybe don’t have access to this? The short answer is yes, absolutely, and we’re looking for ways to do that sustainably. And so it’s not always through donations — or if it is through donations, how do we supplement it with something here that’s market-based — which would be private schools.

Spencer: Am I correct in thinking like that is the function of social enterprise, that you find areas of profitability to support the social impact?

Culver: Yes.

Spencer: So that you’re profitable, staying open, keeping the lights on — when there’s electricity — and then being able to provide affordable bread to those who can’t afford it.

Culver: Yes, I think absolutely. And social enterprise is still such a nascent like subset of business that there are a lot of definitions, but I think that’s an excellent one. Pauline describes it as being something that fills the gaps. So if you’ve got, like, if you’re looking at this as if you’re looking at a P and L, all the way down, you’ve got a gap. You’ve got a net negative or net loss, then that’s where the charity piece, the social piece, comes in, if you’re just looking at it from a pure business standpoint.

And then for me, I’m looking at it as you’re using a business model to achieve social good. So we’re like, empowering women. We’re feeding a bunch of kids using what will eventually be a self sustaining, i.e., profitable model.

Spencer: And you know, whenever you say fill the gaps — you’ve said it a few times over the past few weeks — and it makes me think of this concept of how the world is. So if you put it on an axis, and the horizontal axis is how the world is, and the vertical axis is how the world should be, so that it’s like this, we want to close the gap so that the world as it is is closer to how the world should be. And that, for me, is the social part.

Culver: Yeah, absolutely yes.

Spencer: So the horizontal axis is more flat and a little bit lower. How the world should be is more at a 45 or 60 or 75 degree angle. And we want to bring that access the how it is up, and get how it should be closer to how it is. And I think you guys are doing that.

Culver: That’s what we’re setting out to do. And that’s, that’s what I mean when I say reimagine. And so, I’m like, my medium is business. But like, so when I say reimagine business, it’s because I see business as a medium or tool to achieve positive, lasting social impact or social good. Like, if you don’t like the word impact, fine. But like great social good, and then it’s up to you how you define social good. And for us, it’s women and kids.

Spencer: Yeah, absolutely. So then, okay, so talk to me about the operational perspective of how One Bread fits into the business. Because every week I am just simply amazed at how The Women’s Bakery achieves as much as it does with so few resources as a semi automated bakery.

So, how are you making bread for other customers and for marketplaces while also feeding 24,000 children a day? How does that work operationally?

Culver: Yeah, that’s Pauline’s domain, which I’m so glad you asked it, because that is why I’m here in Rwanda. Because I also have that question, Joanie! I’m, I’m utterly flabbergasted every time I’m on a Zoom call because I work internationally; I live in the US, and I work abroad, and so my touch point is usually via Zoom and I’m often just utterly amazed at what we’re able to achieve, and I can’t wait to see it.

I just can’t wait. I think it’s in shifts. But I also would like to see I’d like to physically follow from start to finish. I want to see how the bread is made. I want to get into one of our little, rickety, hard bodies which delivers the bread, and I want to go to the school. So, once I’ve done that, I will report back.

Spencer: Okay, yes, definitely. And so next week we’re going to talk about the future, so that’s a perfect spot for us to wrap up, because I really wanted to take a look at the One Bread Program and what you’re achieving and how you’ve achieved it.

But next week, we’re going to talk about the future and sort of what’s kind of on the horizon and what you want to see The Women’s Bakery become. Let’s talk about some of the plans to achieve that. And so I think One Bread is a huge part of that. So I think it’s a great place to stop, and then we’re gonna pick it up next week and sort of use One Bread as a jumping off point for what the future holds for The Women’s Bakery. What do you think?

Culver: That sounds great.

Spencer: Okay, Markey, once again, thank you so much. I am just learning so much, and it’s always a pleasure to talk to you, and thanks for closing the gap.

Culver: Oh, thanks, Joanie, that was a nice way to end!