Welcome to the fourth season of the Troubleshooting Innovation podcast. Stephen Hallam, brand ambassador for Dickinson & Morris and chair of judges for the Tiptree World Bread Awards, explores the elements of artisan bread baking that can — and should — be incorporated into commercial bread production. Our final episode is all about people, training and culture in the world of artisan bread production at scale.

Learn more about this season here, and listen to Troubleshooting Innovation on Apple, Spotify, Google and Stitcher.

Joanie Spencer: Welcome to Troubleshooting Innovation, a Commercial Baking podcast. I’m your host, Joanie Spencer, editor-in-chief for Commercial Baking. I’m speaking with Stephen Hallam, Brand Ambassador for Dickinson and Morris and chair of judges for the Tiptree World Bread Awards, which will take place at IBIE 2022 September 18-21 in Las Vegas. This season, we are exploring the principles of artisan bread baking that can – and should – be incorporated into commercial bread production.

Spencer: Our final episode is all about people, training and culture, and the world of artisan bread production at scale. Stephen, thank you so much for joining me in this final week. I have thoroughly enjoyed our conversations and I’m very excited about this one.

Stephen Hallam: Well, people, where are we without people? We start as babies and hopefully leave the world as adults but in between time, there’s an awful lot of knowledge and wisdom – wisdom seems to come with age, I think – that we gain in the world of baking, which is a science, the knowledge is fascinating of what goes on when you are actually mixing dough and when you are baking, along with the action of steam on the dough in the oven. That’s just bread. The same applies in cake making and how you make cake. The different processes, sugar batter, cake batter, etc., all in method. Lamination and what makes flaky pastry, puff pastry puff up? Why doesn’t it puff up when you’ve gone through the process of making it and all of that. Likewise with bread. We can make a dough sometimes and it doesn’t turn out as it should be. All of the science behind breadmaking is not difficult to learn and it’s not difficult to find. I think the two most important years of my life – I’m a retired baker now – but the two years that set me up for life were spent at a baking college in London. It was called the National Bakery School.

Hallam: After I left statutory schooling, I started to work for my father in the bakery. I was told I was helping out and three years later, I was still there. I was sat down by my father and he said, “I think if baking is to be your vocation, as it looks as if it’s going to be, then you need to do the job properly,” which is something I never did. He told me “You need to go to college.” Off I went to get a national diploma for a tech certificate in baking. What I learned in two years, I would never have learned in 30, 35, 40 years, just out in the big wide world or commerce. It was absolutely fascinating, and not just about the science of baking, but the law of contract and tort because when you’re buying and selling products to somebody, there’s legal statutory legislation associated with that about microbiology, hygiene, food safety, bakery organization so you’re not walking a half mile from one thing to another, it all flows. The actual science of behind what makes a loaf of bread and how it all works, what yeast does, learning all about the ingredients. When you understand where chocolate comes from, and the trials and tribulations from in the raw pod to the finished products, and its affinity it has for water, you treat it with much more respect, as you do a lot of your ingredients. The making of all the different fats, sugar – it is fascinating how sugar is made and all the different grades of sugar. Flour and where flour comes from and the challenges the miller has every year because it’s such a natural product. I found all this knowledge to be fascinating, and it’s helped me all my life wherever I’ve been and whatever I’ve been making within the industry.

Hallam: Now not everybody in the industry is as fortunate as I was to go to college for two years. Was it fun? Yes, great fun. I was in London for two years as a single person, I thoroughly enjoyed it. Now, because of this, whenever I see ingredients or I see a loaf, I always look at it in a very different way because I know what’s going on both technically and personally for the people behind making the loaf of bread to get it in front of me. Now, I also think I’m very fortunate that I’ve loved the career that I’ve had. My passport says I’m a baker, not a managing director or passenger or what have you, it says I’m a baker. And that does seem to be – certainly in Europe or Britain – much more respect towards people who have a craft skill and, in this case baking, than there once was. The consumer realizes that there’s a lot more passion, love and technical skill gone into making a loaf of bread than they might have previously, say some 20 years ago. We’ve seen with the rise of artisan bakeries and craft bakers, people paying quite a significant amount of money for a loaf of bread, 5,6,7 pounds for a loaf of bread, because of the time it’s taken to do it. In any bakery, I would challenge or ask the question, “How much do the people working in that bakery, wherever they might be, at whatever stage of process, what training they have received?” It has to be said that if someone knows more about the background of what they’re doing – if they’ve got the information, if they understand what happens in the dough, where flour comes from, if they understand why we only put this amount of water, if they know what happens if there is too much or too little water. If they’ve had quality time, so that means not stood at the table, scaling dough and mixing dough everyday, as important as might be for their role. If they’ve had some time away from the cold face, metaphorically speaking, to learn more about the broader aspect of the science, then not only will they be a better person for it but so will the business and so will product. They will always go an extra mile and a half because they care about it and that can be passed on to other people. That sort of charisma will be with that person. They may become a team leader or a dough handle or dough charge, or whatever the position may be. I find it very sad that all too often, there are some people in positions where they press a button and walk away, and they know no different.  And then they’re the people that get the blame if something goes wrong, because they didn’t know, they couldn’t tell by looking at the dough or they didn’t know that it needed another three or four minutes mixing or that it needed just that little bit of extra water because you’re dealing with new harvest flour, and it needs more development or the water absorption is higher, etc. I would imagine there’ll be many people that would say to me, “Well, that’s all very well at least but these things cost money,” etc. Training should be an inherent part of somebody’s role, we shouldn’t be asking anybody to do anything unless they’re appropriately trained. It does not cost, monetary wise, an awful lot more to engage people more in what they’re doing, giving them a bigger piece of the slice in terms of knowledge. So much can be done online now. Once upon a time, we used to have colleges all through the UK, and you could send your people, staff and employees to colleges on day release. And they’ve basically fizzled out, they’re no longer around, probably because time has become so precious. It can take quite a long time to come up with your qualifications, etc, unless you’re going to do it full time, and that’s a totally different scenario, where you go back into college for two or three years. That happens in Germany. You can’t set up a business, unless you’ve done your master’s degree or master’s certificate and that could take exactly that, two years. As a baker, you would set up and then immediately all your customers know that you have got the knowledge, you have got the training, because you’ve gone through that period that will have cost you significantly as well. So you’ve made a commitment but there’s an immediate trust there, that you’re not just going to be throwing some flour, water and yeast together and making something that you’re going to call bread and sell it.

Hallam: I think the quality of products would also improve when people have more passion for what they’re doing. In any business really – not just a bakery, but we’re talking bakeries – quality is not just about the products and the ingredients from which those products made. Quality is about the people that make those products. It’s about the pride in what they do. It’s the training they receive, the uniforms they wear, the respect they’re given, the equipment they use, sharpness of the knives, the condition and cleanliness of the bakeries, especially the vans and vehicles and so much more. Besides, all these values should be central to the DNA and culture of a business because quality is all about really a way of life. And nobody in honesty really wants to get up in the morning and go to work somewhere where they’re wearing dirty uniforms, where they’re being shouted at, there is more flour on the floor than there is on the table, or the flour store. I’m talking metaphorically here, I’m not wishing to offend anybody in what I say. You’re gonna have a long face, you’re gonna get up in the morning and think, “Oh, I got to go to work.” There are lots of people that don’t want to go to work, I appreciate that. But if you enjoy your work, and you’re getting enjoyment by being included, by not just being a number, but being a part of the broader team and being asked for your opinion and your advice. Somebody asking you for something and saying “please” rather than telling you something, or telling you to do this – “please” and “thank you,” gosh don’t they go a long way? To me, this is all sort of lifestyle and when it comes down to working in a bakery, the actual technical knowledge is the same today as it was 20 years ago as it will be in 20 years time. The actual art of fermentation and what happens with yeast and fermenting, how flour is made from wheat or whatever other grain for that matter. The protein that’s in there that forms the structure, the building block of a loaf of bread, the starch and what that does for the millers.

Hallam: Certainly for myself, there was a “ka-chung” moment when all this came together. It was as if my eyes opened and a judge turned to me and welcomed me with excitement of what was going to happen the next day. Now, there will be, I dare say, a lot of employers or bakers shaking their hands saying “It’s all very well for him,” this, that and the other. Well, I’m really talking about a culture here. Cultures don’t change overnight. Fashions do, they come and go. But in terms of cultures, you have to be consistent. Part of that consistency is treating your people with respect so that they have pride in what they do. And there’s all these little bits that I’ve been talking about, they’re not big. You’re saying good morning to someone in the morning or not saying good morning to somebody. As the boss, when you walk by, you can have a huge effect on that person and on the contrary to that, you may not realize how important it is to that person that you’ve said good morning to them as opposed to, in their eyes, just walked by and ignore them. They then become an incredible ambassador. Now, this isn’t a swoon effect that happens with everybody but it happens with more people than it doesn’t. And the combined effects of the parts is bigger than the individual parts in their own entity. To actually set aside time or create a process whereby all your people or employees can learn more, it doesn’t have to be in work time. You could put a room aside for people to just go and look at whatever the particular topic is you want to learn about, there is so much online if it’s not available from various baking societies, etc. as training packages. There’s two sides to this, isn’t there? There’s the training of the baking knowledge, which is important for the actual job in hand. There’s also the cultural side where people say, “That’s a great company to work for.” When you try and put your finger on that, somebody will say, “Well, I don’t know, it’s just there.” But when they do say that, you know you’ve got it right.

Spencer: I would agree with you that it does instill passion in the job that they’re doing no matter how big or small that they feel invested in the product they’re making or helping to make. I’m curious, as the chair of judges for the Tiptree World Bread Awards, when you’re judging a loaf of bread, does the care of the people come through when you’re judging a finished product? Can you tell the difference?

Hallam: Yes, I think it does. I’ll give you a classic example of something that is wrong that there is absolutely no excuse for. As if you have been presented with a loaf that’s dirty. A loaf of bread will come out of the oven and inevitably it is picked up by somebody wearing oven gloves or oven mitts. When you pick up a tin, a tin will be dirty, it’s coming out the oven. It’s not dirty, as in soil dirt, it’s dirty as in there’s oil and fat it has been in an oven for 30-40 minutes at 450 degrees Fahrenheit. It’s hot, and you’re going to have a dirty side of the mitts where you pick the tin up and then you knock the loaf of bread out into an area that you keep clean. Then you reverse by putting the tin in on one side and you reverse your gloves. You have the clean side that you pick the loaf up with and maybe put it in a wire tray to cool it off. To actually see dirty bread on the shelf because it’s been picked up with the mitts that have also been handling the tins, it’s blasphemous. It just shouldn’t be there and it doesn’t look nice, you wouldn’t want to eat it. And if it’s on a competition table and it’s in front of you, the message is “Well that’s okay on that business for that to happen.” Because if you’re entering a product into a competition, you are basically saying, “That’s the best I can do.” When you enter for the first time, you have what you’ve made. Let’s say it’s the best you can do and it goes and it will be assessed by the judges against the various criteria that we’ve spoken about previously. And comments are made on that loaf as to how it could be best improved or what most impressed the judges about it. The questions leading to positive constructive remarks that go back to the entrant. And then you’ll enter again, and you’ll take that into consideration next year and so on. What gives me huge satisfaction is to see people who’ve regularly entered over the years, and how their entries have improved year over year. Because they’ve taken note of what’s been said. Such remarks sweep through the whole of the business, this loaf is representing that business. It’s the loaf that wins, of course, but all the hype around that goes back into the business, it goes to the people involved in making the loaf. You do see this improvement year on year. And coming back to your question. Yes, if something is just half baked, or just slapped together, and it’s put into the competition, a remark will be made on the assessment form of how it could be improved. An assailant remark as well. You know, this isn’t about putting people down, it’s about helping people. And if it’s helping to improve the quality of loafs across the baking industry, that’s got to be a good thing, I think. We’re always looking for improvement. But at first an entrant might think that’s alright and they put it in, and they did all that work and get some feedback, and then work on it and work on it. When you reach the stage where you’re entering quite regularly – because you realize what this is doing for your people, and that the whole process of entering and getting awards brings the rewards to customers, to people, the business and all of that – you get to a point where you think, “Well, that’s not good enough. I’m not going to put that in.” It’s just occasionally something might not go right and if it’s not right, you shouldn’t be putting it into the competition. Yes, you may have paid the entry fee to enter. But by putting it in the competition, you are saying, “This is representative of what I or what we do. That’s the best we can do.” You don’t enter a competition to come second or third do you? You enter to win.

Hallam: You may come second or third, or the loaf may come second or third. The loaf may get a bronze instead of a silver or a gold, but you don’t enter to get a bronze. You enter to get a gold, you aim high. If you’re forever aiming low, you’re not going to get anywhere, are you? There’s going to be no improvement. You do see that in the loafs. Sometimes there are loafs that stand out. They are there on the judging table and from across the room, you can look across and you go, “Wow!” To get the perfect loaf where all the elements that we’ve been talking about in our podcasts, they’ve all come together. It’s been perfectly mixed, the fermentation is exactly right, the flavor is spot on, it is neither too much but there’s flavor there. You do and you pick this up. Generally, just like you or me, if you feel good on the inside, you look good on the outside.

Spencer: That’s a good point.

Hallam: With a loaf of bread, if it is looking good, then you’re 95% sure it’s going to be good on the inside. Not always, but generally, if you’ve got 20 loaves and you line them all up from the ones that have serious wow factor to those that “oh dear, what’s that one doing here?” and you put them in a row – again, not always, but more often than not – the ones nearest the top from appearance are the ones that will be in the money and in the points. There’s so much going on to get it to look good and so much has happened for the appearance to be good. Or the ingredients, the mixing, the processing, the baking and the person that’s done all of that as well. So yes, you can tell. Sorry, that was rather a long answer.

Spencer: I love your analogies though, I think they’re spot on.

Spencer: Let’s take a break from this episode of Troubleshooting Innovation to talk about Commercial Baking partnership with the International Baking Industry Exposition (IBIE). As IBIE’s Gold Media Partner, Commercial Baking has provided all new media products to help attendees and exhibitors get the most from this year’s show. Check out our IBIE monthly newsletter, IBIE ShowGuide digital edition and our IBIE Booth Trailers by visiting commercialbaking.com. And don’t forget to come see us at IBIE Booth #3125 in the West Hall of the Las Vegas Convention Center. We’ll see you at IBIE.

Spencer: Here’s another question for you, Stephen. Here in the States and in the commercial baking industry, there’s a term we use, and it’s called dough heads. The ones who can look a the dough or touch it and know exactly what’s wrong. That type of person is becoming fewer and further between in our industry and there’s a real struggle to either find dough heads or teach people how to become dough heads. You’ve said something that was so important and that’s that the process itself hasn’t changed. Fermentation is the same. The technology to automate that process has changed drastically. What automation can do is not only make the job easier for unskilled bakers, but it also kind of makes this industry attractive to a digital minded workforce. How can we get workers who are not bakers, who are operators? How can we teach them how to become dough heads? How can we get them back to the basics?

Hallam: It starts with the business itself, doesn’t it? Is there a desire to do it? Because if the business is moving away from the driven passion of what makes a loaf of bread, just to create a return because it’s becoming fully automated and somebody called a chief financial officer or an accountant has said, “Well, we’ll cut this out, because we can make an extra 2% margin by taking this shortcut.” It needs some champions in there, and it needs some people to say you’re wrong. It needs a mindset where within the business, you introduce training programs, it really does. In the UK, we had City and Guilds, which was an accreditation, goes back many years. And there was a time you would do your apprenticeship and before you received your full City and Guilds accreditation, you became a journeyman.

Hallam: It was a little bit different. University nowadays, if it’s a four-year course, you’ll do three years in a year out and that year out is a placement year. Well, the journeyman and it could have been one, two or three years as long as it was, you’d travel around. You were called a journeyman because you’re traveling to different bakeries and picking up skill, etc. The commitment comes from the business itself and the people at the top who are in the position, the board if you like. Generally there’s one or two influential people on the board, who can put product quality first or products first. Because to make good products, you’ve got to have good people, and those people have got to know what they’re doing. Just pressing a button is not knowing what you’re doing. If you lose all this basic underpinning knowledge, you’re not going to business, you’ll not have the custom. Slowly, little by little, you’ll start changing the product. Say it’s a fruit loaf so we’re not controversial. It has a mix, it has 50,000 grams of fruit in it. Some bright spark will have done a calculation to say, “Well actually, you know, price of fruit has gone up. So sultana, we can’t get five crown Australian now, so we will move to Mediterranean or Californian. But instead of putting 50,000 grams, we’ll cut it down, we’ll put 49 kilo instead of 50 kilo into the mix, we’ll still call it fruit bread, because you know, legally we can do that.” Then the next year, it becomes 48 kilo and then it becomes 47 kilo. And before you know where you are you’ve got a very different products. Unless you’ve got champions in place, who are very protective, and that means they’ve got the skill base, they have the CV, they have the credentials to pull people up and say this is wrong. You know, what, what are we about here? But there needs to be a mission statement of the business to ensure that it can be followed. Somebody can’t suddenly undermine it and say, “No, you’re wrong,” And because you’re being difficult, you’re sacked. Because we don’t like what you’re hearing and we’re actually going down to 45 kilo of salt, is absolutely dreadful. What’s coming first, the margin or the product? I fully appreciate escalation of prices. We’ve got energy costs going north, we’ve got all raw materials escalating in price. But should you forsake the quality of a product because of that? No, you shouldn’t. There should be a mechanism process within the business that basically ensures this knowledge is not lost. It could be a weekly seminar of just an hour or half an hour that’s built into a training package. You can have product heroes that can pass this knowledge along and show people. You can learn an awful lot by seeing what wrong is as opposed to seeing what right is. Now we talk about proving just right so this structure you’ve got the oven spring, this, that and the other. If you deliberately make some products, and I’m talking on a test basis not a huge plant, that have no salt in, that’s is far too stiff a dough, that is underproofed, that is overproofed and you see the results. In fact, lots of places do don’t they? Take cookie businesses, etc. and what good looks like and what bad looks like in terms of baking on a color chart. But seeing it on a chart is one thing, actually having a symposium where people can see it for themselves or do it for themselves might be a big ask for some businesses, but the commitment lies on the industry itself to come up with a solution not to lose this underpinning knowledge. They have to put some processes in place in their businesses that allow this to happen. And then of course, you have to follow it up to make sure it does happen. Because there’s no use saying, “We have a training scheme.” Well reward, does there need to be reward? Reward needn’t be monetary when people have attained a level of skill, it doesn’t mean there’s an increase in the wage rate, it can be in all of the ways. But this comes back to what I went on a little bit about to begin with in terms of the culture of the business and the pride.

Spencer: Okay, I have one final question that I think can sort of sum up this episode and sum up this season of Troubleshooting Innovation. Do you think it’s possible to teach manufacturing employees the craft of artisan breadmaking?

Hallam: Yes, yes of course. Gosh, I’ve said it a few times, haven’t I? Oak trees come from acorns. You wouldn’t have large manufacturing if it didn’t start somewhere small to begin with. It can be done. The challenge will be the people in that business allowing it to be done. Somebody will say it’s a cost here or won’t have the time or haven’t got enough people or this, that and the other. If you want it to happen, it will happen. I think the industry needs it to happen, doesn’t it?

Spencer: It does. Yes.

Spencer: Stephen, I think that’s the perfect note to end on.

Hallam: Well it’s been an emotional few weeks and thank you for teasing all this out of me. I am but just a humble baker and very proud of it. If anybody should be coming to IBIE and they’d like to come and have a chat or see what takes place in the process of judging loaves of bread, do come and visit us at the Tiptree World Bread Award stand.

Spencer: Absolutely, definitely. I’m looking forward to meeting you in person at IBIE at the Tiptree World Bread Awards. And I just cannot thank you enough for helping me look at some of the commonalities between artisan bread production and commercial bread production. I think there is so much to learn and that can be applied to and from both sides. I’m just thrilled to see it all come together at IBIE. Thank you again, Stephen, and I will see you very, very soon.

Hallam: I look forward to a Joanie. And just remember, it’s all about the loaf.

Spencer: Thanks for listening to Troubleshooting Innovation, a Commercial Baking podcast. We are excited to join the industry in person as an IBIE Gold Media Partner. Be sure to check out our IBIE monthly newsletter, IBIE ShowGuide digital edition and our IBIE Booth Trailers, all available at commercialbaking.com. Be on the lookout for exclusive digital content live from the show and don’t forget to visit us at Booth #3125 in the West Hall. We’ll see you in Las Vegas.