Welcome to the fourth season of the Troubleshooting Innovation podcast. Stephen Hallam, brand ambassador for Dickinson & Morris and chair of judges for the Tiptree World Bread Awards, explores the elements of artisan bread baking that can — and should — be incorporated into commercial bread production. This episode is all about working with machines: some of the misconceptions and important elements of bringing automation into artisan baking. Here’s what bakers need to understand about the types of machines that are used and how they fit into the process.

Episodes will be released every Sunday through Sept. 11. Learn more here, and listen to Troubleshooting Innovation on Apple, Spotify, Google and Stitcher.

Joanie Spencer: Welcome Troubleshooting Innovation, a Commercial Baking podcast. I’m your host, Joanie Spencer, editor-in-chief for Commercial Baking. I’m speaking with Stephen Hallam, brand ambassador for Dickinson and Morris and chair of judges for the Tiptree World Bread Awards, which will take place at IBIE 2022, September 18-21 in Las Vegas. This season, we are exploring the principles of artisan bread baking that can – and should – be incorporated into commercial bread production.

Spencer: This episode is all about working with machines, some of the misconceptions and important elements of bringing automation into the artisan process.

Spencer: Hi, Stephen. Thanks for joining me this week.

Stephen Hallam: Hi, Joanie. Nice to be talking again.

Spencer: We are going to talk about working with machines. That is something that is a hot topic in the artisan bread production on the commercial side. Creating artisan bread at scale, it’s more complex than simply automating the process. I really want to pick your brain on this one in what needs to be understood about the types of machines that should be used if you’re scaling up artisan breadmaking and how they should fit into the process. I feel like there has to be a lot of forethought before you just start investing in machines.

Hallam: In one sentence, you’ve just said it, it’s the preparation and the forethought. An artisan or craft baker will be making a loaf or loaves that are unique to them and their process. That’s why people shop with them and not the baker down the road. They’re both maybe very good loaves and breads, and I’m sure they are, but there’s always a point of difference with how you do it.

Hallam: The way that you make them bread and the flavor you have, the appearance it has, and all the rest. Hence customers queuing at your door. Now there is absolutely nothing wrong with utilizing machinery – we all need it, whether you’re small or whether you’re large. The key point has to be the product that you’re making is sacrosanct. It should not be changed to suit the machine. That is probably where so many things can go wrong because you’re not ending up with a unique product anymore. I have to say there are remarkable examples of where machinery manufacturers recognize this. They actually adapt their machinery to suit the purpose of the baker and their particular doughs. If we were to walk through the making of a loaf of bread, we’ve got the flour, and you’re going to mix it and you are going to add water to it, along with whatever else. If we’re looking at machinery, a water meter and the chiller, so the water is chilled, that’s a pretty good start to a mix. There are so many mixes available. Effectively, the mixes are bringing all the ingredients together and they’re going to develop the protein that’s in the dough to the degree that you wish it to be developed. Because there are some doughs that want more development and there are some doughs that want less. First part of call for any baker will be to try machinery. Actually get the manufacturers to make some dough or bread, using their recipe and their flour, not necessarily what the machinery manufacturer supplies. And you can ship some of your flour there, and go there if you can. Also, talk to other bakers that are using such machines, because that’s the real test. It may suit their process but when you actually see what their process is, you may discover is very different from your process. It makes you take a step back and say, “Oh, is that too severe of a mixing action for me or is it gentle enough for whatever it may be?” I, personally, am not 100% up to speed with equipment manufacturers across the US, much more I’d say in Europe. We do find Italian, Spanish and German manufacturers are particularly good. That’s not to say they’re the go-to, but they’re particularly good at adapting to suit the purpose of baker. As an example, if we were to look at a sourdough that has 88-90% hydration, it’s containing an awful lot of water and you have a dough that is extremely soft. When the baker’s come to process that in terms of scaling and shaping it to put it into baskets, there will be flour flying around everywhere because it’s so sticky. You’re introducing faults into the bread straightaway with all this flour. A baker’s answer to when something is sticky is to throw some flour at it. But if you are deliberately creating a dough with very, very high hydration, that’s going to be undermined. With all the flour on the table and flour on the hands when you’re dividing you have flour on the scale pan, etcetera, etcetera. Machinery is available now that can handle such wet doughs. There’s a particular colleague of mine here in the UK. He sent a pallet of flour over to Italy, and they did all of their R&D for it. They did all of the sort of work that you would do when you get a machine, they did it out there at the machine manufacturer. So, when the machine was delivered, it was full steam ahead, and they didn’t have a month or two of trials and wastage and what have you because it didn’t suit the purpose. This particular colleague, he scales sourdough into a kilo and 500 gram units. That is now done automatically. There is absolutely no flour that goes in this divider, whatsoever.

Hallam: The dough is in a chamber, there’s no ram or cam that’s pushing or manipulating the dough. It may move along onto a waste scale. It’s cut exactly at 500 gram units without the use of flour or anything sticky. Then it’s transferred onto another piece of kit that very gently doesn’t mold it, but it balls it up to or rounds it. Because the last thing you want to do when you’ve developed the structure, over a whatever period of time, maybe 24 hours or longer, is to lose all of that. We talk about typical “tin bread” over here in Europe or white tin loaf. When you’re molding it, you’re putting lots of tension into the dough because you’ve nurtured it and developed that protein in there. When you mold it, it will stand up proud off the table top, and you don’t with sourdough, you want something that is just going to retain this airy, delicate structure that you’ve created. The piece of dough is picked up and it’s put into the proving baskets. Then the next stage, that is very important for an artisan baker, is that it goes into a retarder or a dough conditioner. Let’s call it a dough conditioner because retarders sound a bit like a fridge. Effectively it is a fridge, but it’s a refrigerated cabinet that the humidity is relatively well controlled. It’ll be about 4°C, that is 75° relative humidity. It’ll be in there for around 18 hours and over that period of time, the heat will slowly be introduced, not a lot, keeping the humidity quite low. This give it a long and slow final rising or proof that keeps the dough very stable. That is the favored method across Europe for sourdough. And when we come to bake the loaf, your choice of oven, artisanally, it will be on the oven’s soul. You have a decision, is that going to be directly onto the oven’s soul using setters or is it going to go onto trays? It then can go in whatever sort of oven, a rack oven, a reel oven, a rotary oven, a deck oven, a traveling oven, etc. There’s lots of points to consider. Every baker needs a mixer, you don’t have to have a water chiller, but it improves consistency if you do. Let’s assume your bakery is air conditioned except around the oven, because that’s going to be better on your dough.

Hallam: We’ve mentioned this in a previous podcast. This is so you’re not getting skinning and what have you on your dough products. And the people are better tempered if they’re not really hot. Let’s not forget how good baker’s need a good divider that suits your dough and suits your process. Don’t be buying something that a manufacturer can say that it will do this, but in order for that to happen you have to do this. And you’ve got to take X percent water out of it. Who is the customer here? It’s not the manufacturer, it’s the baker isn’t it? I think a baker has every right to be tenacious in their requirement and seeking out the right piece of kit for what they want. You can’t have too much refrigeration really, for your retarding and what have you. You can’t rush a sourdough and just leave it in the bakery. You’ve no control over it, we come back to this magic word again, control. You need to be looking after this very active piece of dough. The way to do it is through temperature: we’re talking refrigeration and the right sort of oven. When you’re setting a cold dough piece into a hot oven, you do get a much better oven spring. I’ll backstep a little and go back to your classic typical white “tin bread” that’s popular in this country. It goes into a prover that’s around 30-35°, it’s hot and there is loads and loads of steam. The dough itself can be quite sticky when it comes out the prover. It’s not as stable as it would be if it had a very long, slow proof. Retarding and proving are very similar. You just slightly turn the heat up. It’s controlled, the equipment does that for you and you end up with a fabulous crumb from it all. The conclusion to me is don’t just put up with anything but be very tenacious in trying equipment out and getting manufacturers to change what they do to suit your purpose. Because you don’t have to buy from that manufacturer if it’s not giving the result that you need.

Spencer: Let’s take a break from this episode of Troubleshooting Innovation to talk about Commercial Baking‘s partnership with the International Baking Industry Exposition. As IBIE’s Gold Media Partner, Commercial Baking has provided all new media products to help attendees and exhibitors get the most from this year show. Check out our IBIE monthly newsletter, IBIE ShowGuide digital edition and our IBIE Booth Trailers by visiting commercialbaking.com. Don’t forget to come see us at IBIE Booth #3125 in the West Hall of the Las Vegas Convention Center. We’ll see you at IBIE.

Spencer: I was thinking about the word control and how you had brought that up several times in previous episodes, and how important it is for the baker to be in control of the dough. I think if you’re looking at the dough, the baker and the equipment supplier, the baker has to be that centrifuge between the dough and the machines. In order to get that product, the baker has to be in charge. So I would 100% agree with you. I’ve heard bakers say it so many times, “I’m not going to change my formula for the equipment, the equipment has to suit my formula.”

Hallam: It’s a big world out there now, you know? There is equipment that will do what you require it to do. There are manufacturers that will listen to what you do and there are always a lot of smaller producers and artisan craft bakers that are taking that next step and getting bigger. There’s lots of equipment for the very small people, there’s lots of equipment for the very big commercial setups. But that in between is not so well serviced.

Hallam: You know, when you move from small to large, the amounts of capital needed are sort of infinitesimal sometimes, to comprehend to be able to afford. It’s little steps.

Spencer: Definitely.

Hallam: The analogy of an oak tree coming from an acorn. Let it grow carefully and do not go out and just buy something unless it pays for itself.

Spencer: Yeah. When thinking about IBIE and those mid-size commercial bakers or artisan bakers who are ready to take that next step. Like you mentioned, that million square feet of show floor space can be really overwhelming. I think it’s important for those bakers to really do their homework in advance, because there are so many options and everything is customizable these days, right? Those mid-level bakers should really not be afraid to visit the Artisan Marketplace, to check out the Tiptree World Bread Awards to see the best-in-class and finished product and three, look across the board and don’t be afraid to see what the artisan bakers are doing in the North Hall and what the large scale manufacturers are doing in the West Hall. Because I think that there is something to be learned from the artisan and the commercial side together. I think it’s a wealth of knowledge available to the mid-size bakers who are scaling up.

Hallam: Totally agree. If you’re making the commitment and the effort to come to IBIE, it is huge, it is vast, so you need to maximize your time. Otherwise, you’re going to go home feeling cheated, because you haven’t got really the answers for why you went there. If you sit down and decide “Why am I going?” and what you are after, along with “Where do I need to go for that?” There’s lots to help people with that. You just need to do some homework first. Talking to other bakers, we are a friendly lot, you know? There are very few professions where you might have run out of an ingredient and then you go and ask your competitor, where you might bake around the corner, if you can borrow some yeast or borrow some flour, it happens. But know that there’s something about being able to turn three or four basic, very diverse, raw materials into something that’s is nourishing and creates great joy. Then the challenge of doing that every day, and then every week. And then of course, ensuring that all your people and all your colleagues are as equally passionate about it as you are. This is another challenge and something we’ll talk about in another podcast. Because you know, as the boss, you can’t do it all yourself so you do need some help. We come back again now to machinery. Machines can  help you. It’s really about the people that are pushing the buttons and the people that are buying the machines. Do you have the right machine for the right purpose?

Spencer: Exactly. You said machines aren’t bad. When you’re thinking about those artisan bakers ready to scale up, it can be very frightening. It makes me think of when several, several years ago, I had the opportunity to cover the Coupe du Monde when it was at Europan in France. I interviewed some bakers on Team USA and one of them told me that the most frightening thing for him about competing on Team USA was that he had never used an industrial oven. Everything that he had done had been literally by hand and on woodfire until he joined Team USA and so it was a terrifying learning curve for him. That’s sort of an extreme example, but I think it is a little bit nerve racking and can have some misconceptions that an artisan baker would say, “Well, if you use automation or you use equipment, it’s not artisan anymore.” I don’t believe that to be true. Do you have any advice for those bakers on how they can ease the trepidation in going into an automated process and incorporating equipment into their breadmaking?

Hallam: I think it starts with mindset. If you don’t want to believe in something you never will. If you look around you and talk to other bakers, you’ll actually more often than not discover that by introducing the right piece of equipment within the process, you’re probably going to actually improve the quality of the loaf that you’re getting. Now that has to be a good thing. Consumers are always looking for better and better standards and not just the quality of product but the service as well. It’s only those businesses that can continue to improve their products. They will be the ones that thrive. There’s no successful business or brand out there that prospers over time by lowering its standards. With judicial choice, there are many elements to weigh off. There is the cost, which may seem frightening. There may also be a concern that introducing a divider. As for example, with my colleague who I was referring to earlier with this scaling of sourdough, he had four or five people involved in the process: one person weighing, one person scaling, and shaping, etc. However, that’s now reduced to one. But these people are needed in the business and they are not doing those particular tasks anymore. The product is better, because it doesn’t have the faults of flour being thrown all over it and pockets of poor shaping. It did probably take a couple of months for piece of equipment that divided there to settle in and be bedded in. That’s called managing change. If you were to go to those people now, and say “I’m taking this machine away and we’re going back to the way we used to do things,” they wouldn’t let you out of that bakery alive. It’s a bigger thing than just saying machines are bad. It’s the wrong machine will inevitably sky your judgment. This is where the groundwork has to be done to make sure that you really do go out of your way to ensure what you’re moving to is right for your product, your business and your people.

Spencer: Okay, I think you hit the nail on the head that machines aren’t bad, the wrong machines are bad.

Hallam: Correct. Yes. Absolutely.

Spencer: That’s really good insight. One thing I want to go back to, is going back to that concept of control. If a baker knows that they cannot compromise their product or their formula for the sake of the machine. When they’re venturing into the space, what do they need to make sure that they are demanding from their equipment suppliers?

Hallam: Oh, gosh, well, are you asking the impossible? Are you trying to make water stand up on end is a classic baker’s expression. Are you being reasonable? Are you being unreasonable? There has to be a solution for every challenge. If there is a trade off or a compromise, then only you can decide whether it should be at the sake of quality. I would maintain it should never and if a baker agrees to do that, it will be consequential denigration of the product if you start reducing product quality. Because customers will notice; You might not think they do, but they will. Perhaps you can’t continue to market it as the same product. If you really can’t find the right mechanical solution to the challenge you’ve got, are you right in doing it anyway if you want the business? What’s coming first? Are you making all your bread as a hobby or as a passion? Because that’s generally where businesses start, then you have to go and find another hobby. How driven are you on your margin, your ultimate return? It’s a hard one, I don’t think I could give a sweeping example that you have to do this and that. Ultimately, you have to do what’s right for you. Sometimes it’s good to say no. You can be drawn in to something and say yes for the sake of saying yes. I have with a molder once and it stood in the corner and never got used because it was quite complex to use it, but that was a training issue. It was one of the best types of molders for the purpose of which it was purchased for but the sales weren’t particularly that big and I purchased the wrong machine, really. But it was difficult to use so people didn’t use it.

Spencer: That’s kind of funny. I was going to ask you as a follow up about training expectations from equipment suppliers.

Hallam: Well, if you have purchased a new oven, the bake profile of a new oven – whatever the oven is – is going to be different to the oven that you currently have. Even if it’s the same brand or make, if it is five or six years newer, there will be efficiencies that have been introduced into the manufacturer of the oven that will make it better. Because no oven manufacturer is going to be continually making an oven that is worse than the model they brought out before. And you need help to understand the settings because it is not just top and bottom heat anymore. You have top heat, bottom heat, back heat, front heat and the changing of bake profiles during the baking. High heat to start with then lowering down, introduction of steam. If you’re doing cake it could be on a continual regular basis over the baking profile. Quite often, as soon as you move to a new oven, you’re finding that the efficiency of transfer of heat whilst saving energy. That’s a big one at the minute isn’t that, you know, most bakers in the UK at the moment are facing an increase of energy cost of 300%. I don’t think anybody has an answer as to how to get over that other than prices are going to have to go north. It is a mitigating circumstances that everybody is facing the same challenge both in the industry and consumers at home. You immediately start to be a little bit more canny with usage and lights, etc. When you’re not in the room they’re switched off, this way they are not on all day and night. Oven electricity is a classic example. An equipment manufacturer, (as opposed to somebody who’s just selling the equipment), the manufacturer, I would be most surprised if they are not as helpful as can be if and when they are asked to give you the answers you want. If you’re talking to somebody who just sells equipment and isn’t a baker themselves, or hasn’t even been to where the equipment is made or has never used it, you’re talking to the wrong person.

Spencer: I agree with you that the equipment manufacturers in general are very quick to help and to train. I think it’s good advice to include that as something you are steadfast in requesting, so that there is a level of teaching and training. I also agree with you if they are a baker, all the better.

Hallam: Yes, because you’re talking the same language. In this instance, another manufacturer, they will have bakers on the team, they know what they’re talking about. You’ll also get a lot more respect. As a manufacturer, you get a baker come onto you and start asking you challenging questions about bake profiles, etc., you smile because you think great, you are talking to somebody that knows what they’re talking about. As the baker, you’re going to come away feeling good. And thinking I’m getting somewhere here.

Spencer: Absolutely. Well, Stephen, I think those are really all the questions that I have in talking about incorporating machines and just having that conversation about bakers stepping into an automated process and having that relationship with machines. Next week is going to be very interesting because we’re going to talk about the people. There has to be a relationship between the people and the machines because it’s about so much more than turning on the equipment or pressing a button and dealing with the interface. I’m excited to bring this whole conversation we’ve been having together at the end next week to talk about people, training and culture in the world of artisan bread. Thank you for today’s discussion and taking the fear out of machines and automation in artisan bread making.

Hallam: Absolutely. I’ve throughly enjoyed it. I’m looking forward to the final episode, saving the best till the end.

Spencer: That’s absolutely true. I will reconnect with you next week. Stephen,

Hallam: I look forward to it. Thanks very much, Joanie.

Spencer: Thanks for listening to Troubleshooting Innovation, a Commercial Baking podcast. We are excited to join the industry in person as an IBIE Gold Media Partner. Be sure to check out our IBIE monthly newsletter, IBIE ShowGuide digital edition and our IBIE Booth Trailers all available at commercialbaking.com. Be on the lookout for exclusive digital content live from the show and don’t forget to visit us at Booth #3125 in the West Hall. We’ll see you in Las Vegas.