Welcome to the fourth season of the Troubleshooting Innovation podcast. Stephen Hallam, brand ambassador for Dickinson & Morris and chair of judges for the Tiptree World Bread Awards, explores the elements of artisan bread baking that can — and should — be incorporated into commercial bread production. In this episode, he dives deep into ingredients, fermentation, and flavor and taste fundamentals.

Episodes will be released every Sunday through Sept. 11. Learn more here, and listen to Troubleshooting Innovation on Apple, Spotify, Google and Stitcher.

Joanie Spencer: Welcome to Troubleshooting Innovation, a Commercial Baking podcast. I’m your host, Joanie Spencer, editor-in-chief for Commercial Baking. I’m speaking with Stephen Hallam, brand ambassador for Dickinson & Morris and chair of judges for the Tiptree World Bread Awards, which will take place at IBIE 2022, Sept. 18-21 in Las Vegas. This season, we are exploring the principles of artisan bread baking that can and should be incorporated into commercial bread production. Our first episode revolves around the fundamentals of commercially producing artisan bread. Stephen, thanks for joining me today. I’m so excited to speak with you.

Stephen Hallam: Hi, Joanie. The honor is mine.

Spencer: So we have a lot to talk about when it comes to artisan bread, baking and lessons that can be learned for the producers of commercially made bread. And specifically with IBIE right around the corner, something that I find really important is that artisan bread, bakers, artisan bakers in general, and commercial bakers are coming together at IBIE under one roof. And I think there’s so much that both sides can learn from the other. So we’re gonna dive into artisan bread baking. And the first question I want to ask you is, what are the most important product characteristics that cannot be lost, when a baker is commercially producing artisan bread?

Hallam: I think one can write a book on this, but to keep it sort of salient and brief and focused, whether you’re a small producer or a large producer artisanal commercial, a loaf of bread should give satisfaction to the consumer to the person that is buying it or being given it, they’re going to eat it, it should be nourishing, and they should like it. So for a loaf of bread to, first of all, have a good appearance… I’m talking broadly now, which can be dangerous, because there’s all different types of bread and loaves, etc. But whether we’re talking sourdough, whether it’s a challah, pretzel, whatever it may be, it will have an appearance and it will need to look good. And it’s only going to look good if a number of criteria in the whole process of making the loaf of bread have come together.

Yes, we have the flour, but we rely so much on the miller to be presenting us bakers with a flour that is consistent. And that’s a challenge in itself, because the wheat or whatever other grains are being used into the grist, are grown every year in different conditions. We tend to take for granted that we open the bag and the flour is there but huge amount of effort and skill goes into producing consistent flour for us. And straightaway, I’m assuming there’s a blend of wheats. I say wheats that could be other grains as well going into the flour. Latterly we there’s a huge interest in just heritage grains, old fashioned grains that through whatever reason are no longer used and they’re coming back to the fore because they’re giving different characteristics to the flour. There’s that and then you’re going to make a dough, the sort of water you use, that’s important the yeast whether you’re using yeast or not, whether you’ve got a sponge, a sourdough starter, a bigger colleague, whatever you wish, but some means of adding extra flavor to the dough. If it’s, let’s say a traditional sourdough, your yeast, your fermentation will come from your starter, you won’t be adding extra yeast, all of that needs controlling. And you’re going to make your dough how long you’re going to ferment it for you’re going to keep it so the longer you ferment it of course, the more flavor there will be, but will also affect the structure.

So when you’re mixing, you know, ensuring the flour has sufficient water so that it produces the protein that you need: that will be the structure of the loaf. Mixing time is fairly crucial, as is the water absorption and you’re going to leave it to ferment and then when you’re going to mold, if you haven’t got all these parts, right. When you come to mold, the loaf protein won’t have the right tension in it. It won’t hold up to how you want it to look. It may be, if it’s a very long fermented sourdough, that you’re not going to mold it. You need to treat it with much more care. And it could have an extremely high rate of, of hydration, so a lot of water in there, it’s very sticky, so you’ve got to treat all of that. Then you’re going to give it what maybe its final proof its final rising and domestic terms that could be done overnight, it could be done over a day, or it could be done in a speedier environment where you got a warm cupboard or prover, or what have you, then you’re going to bake it. And if you say you’ve over proved that you can let it go too long, then you may not get the effect you want to see in the oven, the oven needs to be the right sort of oven with the right sort of temperature. And you’re going to effectively bake the loaf and the baking should be just so shouldn’t be overbaked. In other words burnt, it shouldn’t be underbaked. So soggy, should be even not baked on one side and under baked on the other.

There’s an enormous amount of skill to getting the loaf into the oven, and then it’s got to be baked correctly. If all of that hasn’t come together correctly, the loaf itself will not look particularly attractive, and probably won’t be bought in a shop or wherever. And I’m only here talking about the external criteria, we went to talking about the appearance when you actually feel the low fuel crust on there. If making for example a baguette and you’re baking in steam to give the outer surface of the crust, its eggshells sort of very thin, lovely, crispy crust. And when you pick the load up, and you can feel it well you’ll be smelling it straightaway. There’s no better product I think in the world that can appeal to all of your senses. It’s a natural phenomena, isn’t it, when you pick a low folk, you’re going to squeeze it. In the UK, the millers have what’s called a squeeze test where they’re replicating what housewives do when they go and buy a loaf of bread, they squeeze it over here in Europe, most consumers are expecting it to be soft. So if it’s not soft, they’ll put it back and they’ll reach one that is when we come to cut the loaf, you’re feeling the knife going first of all through the crust and you’re listening to that, depending upon the type of loaf you’re making. If it’s a holler, for example, it is not going to be crispy, but the appearance should be bold, should have a lovely glaze, you’ll be looking at the plaits and they’ll be quite soft in sight. As you’re cutting, you’re taking all that into consideration. And then you’ll have an aroma coming to you. And you’re going to be looking at the texture inside, you’re going to be looking at the softness of the chrome, its resilience. And then the all-important taste and flavor. We have a way with when we’re assessing and judging a loaf of bread, taking the aroma and taking the flavor in one. So aroma, yes, that comes through our nose flavor really comes from the tip of the tongue. So with cut surface of a loaf of bread, you’d hold it up to your nose and you’d squeeze and at the same time tip of your tongue just touch the surface of the loaf. And you’ve got all your olfactory senses happening at once. You can straightaway pick up the length of fermentation, how much effort has gone into getting flavor into that loaf, the softness of the crumb, and the resilience you’re not going to get that unless all the different elements of the process the flowers, right, the mixings, right, the water absorptions, right. And some flowers that contain a lot of very strong gluten forming proteins take longer to mix, they take more hydration. And if you haven’t developed that enough, through longer mixing, then the result will show in the finished loaf.

Spencer: It’s really amazing that we’re talking about a product that comes from four ingredients — flour, water, salt and yeast — yet it is so complex. And one misstep can completely change a product or getting everything just right can create a really amazing experience that like you said it touches all four senses. I can’t think of many products that come from something so simple that are actually quite complex. If we look at The Renaissance that artisan bread has experienced over the past few years. I think it started before the pandemic. But I think the pandemic definitely kicked it into high gear with so many consumers trying to make sourdough in their own homes. What advice would you have for a commercial baker, who wants to bring artisan bread to consumers who don’t have the skills to make it in their home? Without just getting on the bandwagon? How can they really take this seriously and create a good loaf of bread in a commercial facility without just saying we want to get on that trend?

Hallam: Well, I think you touched on something very interesting there, Joanie, the pandemic, lots of people have nothing more to do their home. Bread is the stuff of life. It is simple, it is easy to make. There are hundreds of books about the mysteries and science of breadmaking. But you’re right, there’s just four ingredients. But keeping it simple. That’s what a lot of people have discovered that is very therapeutic, when you’re making bread yourself with your own hands at home. And if you scale that up, and you’re doing that, in a micro bakery, commercially, you’re still using the same principles. Instead of lots of pairs of hands, you’ll apply to a machine, but you’re still using the same ingredients. And the challenge then becomes to replicate what you’re doing by hand with a machine but not taking away the benefits of the natural ingredients. It is a proven fact that naturally leavened bread is better for your digestion, you digest it better than maybe some breads that have been processed extremely quickly. And by taking a shortcut of processing quickly, something is being added to the dose to speed that up to take the shortcuts that the natural process of fermentations gas produced stretches the dough, it stretches the protein, it softens it, it allows it to become extensible, and elastic.

Consumers have sort of gone back and rediscovered what basic bread is and what it tastes like. Now the crumb structure, it may be more open, it may not be perfectly white in color. Quite a lot of consumers if they’re asked what their vision of a of a loaf of bread is, they’ll say something nice and white and soft. Well to make it white, you’re adding extra things into the process to do that. And it could actually be longer mixing or more water, so that action actually bleaches a flour in a natural process. Once upon a time, we used to have agents that were added to flower that would bleach it because people liked white bread, just the basic principles of allowing nature to take its course. And then introducing steps to control that you can have too much fermentation, it can become too acid, the effect of the acidity can break down the very thing that you’re trying to develop and protecting that the protein. So it all falls apart. And sometimes you can’t have enough. So you could taste a loaf of bread and it’s well, there’s been very little fermentation and there’s no sound sponge or what have you. And there’s no flavor. It’s just serving as a vehicle that a slice of bread is a vehicle to put something else on. Or you can make it stand out by letting the fermentation happen, adding extra salad to it, but controlling it. Controlling it means watching your time and watching your temperature. Because if things get too warm, it can just race away with you.

Spencer: Right, when you think about consumers preferences for clean label products. I mean, I’d say it’s probably been in the past 10 years that consumers have taken to label reading. And I think the term clean label was probably an industry term before it was a consumer term, but it’s really what they were trying to do. And I believe that this resurgence of good bread came out of the clean label movement. Again, if we go back to what we were talking about the four simple ingredients and only takes four or even three ingredients to make a good loaf of bread. That is quintessentially a clean label product, right?

Hallam: Totally agree. Why have we become so infatuated? Of making things last a long time, and in their natural state, they’re not designed to do so. I think you have a classic example here of distribution, an artisan, craft baker, they’re making the bread, and they’re gonna sell it, and they’re going to sell it there. And then in the shop, to farmers markets, what they make today, they’ll sell today. And it’s not going to get wrapped, sliced, or used by or best before date on it of 10 days’ time. Because it’s got to go through a distribution network of whatever that may be the vans to go here and then to there and delivered on the other side of the country. To enable that to happen, things have got to be put in to that loaf of bread to give the impression, that is still a fresh loaf of bread or keep it saleable not just during the transport time, but when it gets to the other end and a consumers Baltics consumer doesn’t want to buy it with well, interest, I was going to say with just a day to two’s life on it. But hey, go to France. And, you know, traditionally, you’ve got all your baker’s baking twice a day, because some baguette that you bought for breakfast, due to the quality of the protein will be quite hard and tough. And you wouldn’t consider it in the same baguette in the evening. Over time, that has changed because milling methods have improved and wheat varieties have been introduced to the protein, if you like is been nurtured and adapted to enable less be just one bake a day and not necessarily two.

Spencer: Yeah, I’m happy that you brought that up that distribution because I was actually just yesterday speaking with a European baker, who their company has come into the US market and distribution was one of the biggest things that they had talked about in how they had to change their process because of the drive time. Like you said, commercial bakers are not selling what they make that same day they have to be put on a truck, they go to a distribution center, then they get sent out to the retail locations and put on a shelf. And so a lot of time has passed by the time that bread gets home to a consumer and then the consumer, American consumers want their stuff to last. They want their bread to be able to sit in the kitchen for a week and have the quality the same as when they purchased it. And that’s sort of a double-edged sword for a baker, don’t you think?

Hallam: I do think there’s an enormous amount of education to be done of the consumers to say, you know, you can’t have your cake and eat it. You know, if that’s what you really want, then you’ve got to change your shopping habit, you need to be supporting your small local artisan craft baker, because that’s the difference. They’re not having to change their product to suit the purpose.

Spencer: Yeah. And this European Baker that I talked to, I mean, they said that they did have to sort of adjust their process, but they were very, very choosy about how they do that, that you don’t just add any sort of shelf-life extender in that they’re very choosy about how they adjust their recipes, in order to accommodate for distribution without compromising the quality. So I mean, I do think it is possible. But I don’t think that it’s something that a commercial baker should take lightly, by any stretch of the imagination.

Hallam: No, there’s some things you can do that have huge effects. As soon as you wrap a product, you introduce what’s known as ERH equilibrium, relative humidity. So this is the humidity that’s in the bag. So between the wrapper, and the actual product now that’s if there’s a high humidity in there, then you’re going to get mold, surface mold quite quickly on the product, even though it’s wrapped. That can be controlled by the environment where you wrap the loaf of bread. So take for example, if you’re just wrapping it in a bakery, and it’s close to where you’re making everything, there’s lots of flour in there, and it’s all being done by hand. That wouldn’t be the best scenario if you’re wanting to extend the life of that life because when it comes down to the oven, it’s sterile. And the environment through which it passes is quite crucial to prevent surface born that say infection from mold or what have you, often the people that might be doing the wrapping, as well, the product needs protecting. So you can have the product wrapped on a machine and it’s gas flushed, there’s something about doing that for a loaf of bread that doesn’t sit comfortably with a lot of people, because the idea is to eat it not keep it, you know, it’s not a motorcar that you want to keep for two or three years before you or however long it might be before you exchange it, we don’t have a loaf of bread here, when you go to a restaurant for a meal, you know, you eat the meal there, and then you don’t take it away with you to eat four days later, do you?

Spencer: That’s a good point.

Hallam: Just a sort of off-the-cuff scenario there. But there’s other ways as well, of extending the shelf life and salt levels are one, just by slightly increasing the salt level in the product can dramatically reduce your equilibrium, relative humidity, something that’s particularly prevalent in cakes, because they have quite high sugar level. And that mold loves, of course. But that’s not to say, you’re creating a problem by having too much salt in it. There’s a lot of focus on salt levels in food, per se, around the world. You know, it’s not good for the ticker is it too much salt. But there is a balance. And salt in food is there not just to enhance flavor, it does have an astringent action on protein. But there is a balance between having sufficient for its technical purpose and sufficient for flavor purpose, as opposed to too much. When you’re rapping, you’ve got to start doing things to loaves of bread that you wouldn’t otherwise do.

Spencer: Right. So there’s another thing I wanted to ask you about. You’ve mentioned it a couple of times, and that is the wheat. Can you sort of enlighten me on your views on how some of these varieties of wheat can impact the quality of an artisan loaf of bread?

Hallam: Well, hugely.

Spencer: Do we have time?

Hallam: Yes, yes, I better write another book. When we talk of flour for bread making you immediately think wheat, the white flour comes from the endosperm. That’s the white sticky stuff inside a grain of wheat when you bite into it out in the field as you do as a child you’re walking along. And the miller’s job is to extract that and then dry it and convert it into this flour. And if you’re going to use the whole grain, the germ is generally removed. The germ is the powerhouse if you like, which when conditions are right, and the grain is planted, and the moisture is there, etc. It sends a little signal to everything and it all starts growing and the radical starts the roots start coming down and gloomy all goes up. And it’s the endosperm which is the starch that feeds the whole process. And you end up with the plant of wheat, which is quite remarkable when you think of what it’s all come from as one little seed or one little grain.

Where the wheat is grown, and how it’s grown, can have remarkable attributes to the final flour. So you could take one strain of wheat, you could grow it in Canada, you could grow it in America, you could grow it in Europe, and the resultant flour will be hugely radically different. The conditions of where it’s grown and how it’s grown, will affect the amount of gluten forming protein that is in the grain. It’s not necessarily about how much of this protein is there, but it’s about the quality of that protein. So for a long, long time, European wheats produced quite poor-quality flour the protein level was very low. Nowadays it’s much, much higher. But the actual qualities that flour has or the qualities of the protein when it’s made into bread is very much poorer than similar flour that comes from the prairies and from Canada. Different wheat varieties have different strengths let’s say in terms of different proteins different amounts of starch etc. So the miller will focus on that to get the right blend what we call a grist by mixing different grains together to give a consistent result for the flour they make you may want a very strong white flour because the bread is going to be baked with no support. So it’s going to be oven bottom baked, it will also need strength for the, for the molding process. When you come to mold the dough, there’s a tension there. And you can see the tension being built up as you mold it tighter and tighter. And if the protein hasn’t got the qualities needed to do that, it will just relax. It’ll just flatten out, which is not what you want added to this as the flavor that the flour gives.

There is a lot of interest at the moment of returning to some old varieties of grain that have long since disappeared. But they’re giving different textures to bread, they’re giving different flavors, different appearances. And there’s a consumer demand for that, because it’s in the mind that it’s pure, that is cleaner will go back to the clean label again, there’s a reason that perhaps they’ve been out bred and no longer around, you know, the desire to make things quicker, make things in inverted commas better. So this sort of redefines what you mean by better. People are becoming much more conscious of their own health, and the number of papers about what we should eat, how much we should eat, the effect of our digestion, because of all the various fast foods that’s produced in that category that we’re eating, as opposed to simple foods. And you can’t get anything much simpler than bread made in its raw state in its original state. So we then come back to what consumers want. Well, I think the majority of consumers want a loaf of bread that satisfies their desires, but that there is a growing percentage of consumers that are more interested in eating less but eating better. Not just wheat from which bread can be made. We all zoom in on wheat because wheat contains those gluten forming proteins gluten gliding and globulin in greater proportion than any other grain. But with an understanding of the science behind fermentation, other grains are beginning to be used. Gluten, people that have an intolerance to wheat gluten has been a huge catalyst I think in the use of spelt. A spelt actually, as an example, is the precursor to the wheat. It’s the oldest known grain certainly in Europe. It was there thousands and thousands of years ago. Spelt contains gluten-forming proteins but the bread made with spelt can be assimilated by people who have a wheat gluten intolerance, because most intolerances to gluten are for wheat gluten.

Spencer: Okay, Stephen, I have just enough time for one last question. And I want to kind of bring it back to IBIE and the Tiptree World Bread Awards, where you are the chair of judges. I do think that this event, which correct me if I’m wrong, but this is the first time that this competition is coming to IBIE, is that correct?

Hallam: That’s correct. Yes. The World Bread Awards in the US was launched about five years ago in New York. It’s sponsored by Tiptree, a big, internationally known British brand, focusing on jams, chutneys, preserves, etc. And we’ve come across to IBIE, who are co-partners in the awards together with the American Society of Baking. And it’s essentially about promoting bread because there are no other awards in the USA, that celebrate bread. And that’s important, right? All too often. We read on the news for anything to be newsworthy, it needs to be something that’s gone wrong, in general. And across the world, you know, people can be so slow to celebrate success. But as soon as you do, it’s not just the product that gets the focus. It’s the people behind it. And in terms of the bread awards, it’s the loaves that win. Now that there are different categories for different types of loaves and each loaf is judged again, against different criteria. Their parents the crust, baked texture, their aroma, their flavor. And it’s always the loaf that is assessed not the people behind making the loaf, the bakers, the chefs, etc. Yes, they will get the praise for having made the loaf, but it’s the loaf that’s the hero.

Spencer: Yeah. And that’s why I’m so fascinated that this event is happening at IBIE, because I do see it sort of as an intersection of the artisan bakers and the commercial bakers. And like you said, it’s about the loaf, and not the person or the company behind that loaf.

Hallam: Here’s the thing. Any business always needs to focus on quality, you know that there’s no business that can survive by reducing quality. There’s no brand or business out there that in the long term has gained by reducing quality you might benefit in the short term by reducing quality on something but in, in my world, and the world of bread, it should be a no-no, right from the word gate, it takes absolutely no longer and hardly saving any expense at all, to reduce your quality. So you should always looking to be do better, to do better and improve. But, you know, as businesses grow, we always looked to aspire and do better and get bigger. Oak trees come from acorns don’t like you know, things start small. And as a craft baker, a micro baker to begin with somebody that started as a hobby. And that hobby then turns into a business. And then they’ve got to find another hobby to do if they have time. If you’re a baker you’d be looking to begin with. And at an event like IBIE, it’s the ideal exposition for aspiring craft bakers to come see where they can head and how they can improve, and how they can do more. And it will be up to them how they incorporate that into their business.

The first thing that craft baker is going to be upset about is not doing it themselves with their own hands. But you’ve got to know how to do that to be able to use the machine effectively, and adjust that machine as opposed to buying a machine because you’ve been told it will do X, Y and Zed and press a button and stand there and it doesn’t do that. Well, if you’ve got that craft knowledge to start with whatever the machine might be, or piece of cake, or oven or what have you. If you’ve got that knowledge, it’s going to put you in a hugely strong place.

Spencer: Absolutely. I could not agree with you more. And that is exactly what I hope to accomplish in this season of Troubleshooting Innovation. Stephen, I want to tap into your expertise to share with commercial bakers to sort of get back to that artisan mindset, because I do think that that will help exponentially in an automated process. I’m so excited to dive in over the course of five weeks with you as we lead up to IBIE and the Tiptree World Bread Awards to look at all of these principles. Next week, we’re going focus on something that you mentioned, and that’s time and temperature and the criticality of that in the process. So I’m excited to dive into that with you next week.

Hallam: Looking forward to it to Joanie.

Spencer: Thank you for listening to Troubleshooting Innovation. Tune in next week when Stephen Hallam and I discuss time and temperature, two of the most important factors when scaling up in artisan bread production.